Wolves In Oregon

[coyote223]

Try going Hunting this year. I see fewer Animals every year. Mt Lion numbers are on the rise. They eat about 55 big game meals a year each. Thats a fact,,,

I don't know how many Wolves need to survive? But I fail to see how the Big Game numbers will rise, throwing another Big Game eater up to the bar?

The problem with finding facts this day in age is, they are all one sided. Doesn't matter what side, they only spin what they want you to believe to push their agendas.

 

[mortre]

True, finding facts is hard because everyone is lying. About the only way to get anything close to facts is read both sides of the story, and read the studies the stories are based on.

But one example is that currently we have human and cougar predation on adults, and coyote predation on yearlings. Introducing wolves will increase predation on adults, and given time reduce predation on yearlings as the coyote's are killed and driven off. Also, the additional predation on adults will reduce the median lifespan of the adults and thereby reduce the number of non-predation deaths from old age and disease.

Add into the mix that currently we have overly inflated numbers of big game species in some area's beyond what the forests can sustain. Yellowstone is a good example of this as some ecological systems were disappearing from Yellowstone as the Elk were unchecked and overgrazing. This was causing the extinction of other species of animals (if I remember correctly one was a species of butterfly and another was one of the types of trout) that require those ecological systems. With the introduction of wolves into the system those ecological systems are now recovering and coyote population have dropped by roughly 40%. Elk are being pushed by the wolf predation out of the wolves territory and into surrounding areas, but there is currently no real pressure on the wolves to move along with them.

 

[Phillyfan]

That was a rhetorical statement, Einstein.

Oh, OK. It seemed like you were saying that you didn't want to hear any of our opinions or anecdotes on the subject unless we had facts to back them up. Maybe I just read it wrong. (sarcasm, by the way)

Yours Truly,
Einstein

 

[2506]

Oh, OK. It seemed like you were saying that you didn't want to hear any of our opinions or anecdotes on the subject unless we had facts to back them up. Maybe I just read it wrong. (sarcasm, by the way)

Yours Truly,
Einstein

Thanks for your understanding, Eistein. I should have been clearer in my original post--I want more facts for myself--I'm all for this discussion. I'm just not ready to make a decision based on what somebody's friend's uncle's mom saw or heard.

 

[Phillyfan]

Thanks for your understanding, Eistein. I should have been clearer in my original post--I want more facts for myself--I'm all for this discussion. I'm just not ready to make a decision based on what somebody's friend's uncle's mom saw or heard.

Yeah, that makes sense, and I agree.

 

[chemist]

There's more than mere rhetoric behind mortre's statement, and anyone who's looked at Yellowstone knows that even a few wolves can have a big impact, not through predation, but because they force changes in prey species' behavior.

Okay, there's a little difference between the wolf species. I'll take the wrong apex predator over none at all.

 

[mortre]

I did do a little research on the whole subspecies thing. Apparently the sub-species that was in the Yellowstone area before they were killed off (Canis lupus irremotus) is no longer believed to not be a separate subspecies, and is considered to be canis lupus nubilus. Canis lupus occidentalis is what was re-introduced even though there was controversy that canis lupus nubilus should have been the subspecies that was reintroduced. Basically one was a "better fit" for what used to be there, and the other was the most likely to eventually expand to the area without human intervention.

canis lupus nubilus - 150–210 cm (4.9–6.9 ft) long from snout to tail tip, and weighs between 35 and 60 kg (77 and 130 lb).
canis lupus occidentalis - 32–36 inches (81–91 cm) at the shoulder and males weigh between 100 and 145 pounds (45–65 kg)

 

[turq]

Basicly wolves are wolves. In Canada you can shoot 'em whenever no lic. no tag no season. That's where the Feds. in Yellowstone went to to "import" the transplants. They wanted 300. Look what we got now!
Now; they're endangered this side of the border.
Read the article!
Not good for Hunters ( who have payed BILLIONS out since the late 1930s)
only to get they're hunting closed out by animal lovers working for the
U.S. Park Service.
There will not be animals to hunt in a matter of 10 years in the NW.(ie. elk)

 

[2506]

Really? I'd be much more concerned with the double whammy of habitat loss and lack of access to land (i.e., private landowners who won't let you hunt on their land) in a matter of ten years than the elk co-existing with an apex predator.

 

[BigBull 301]

www.saveelk.com

Check it out!

 

[Jamie6.5]

http://washingtonwolf.info/

More good info.

 

[eriknemily]

www.saveelk.com

Check it out!

WOW!!! If their data chart showing the rate of cow/calve loss over the past 15 year is accurate is there any other conclusion we can come to then the wolf populations need to be managed a bit better???

 

[afp]

A Montana herd went from 17000 to 7000 just a few years after wolves were introduced. That alone is extremely troubling. We have to remember that wolf introduction is a tool of the antis for ending hunting. As the herds decline, Game depts reduce hunter harvest.

There was a reason our grandparents and great grandparents thinned out cougars and exterminated the wolves. I consider this generation, the "Great Generation," to be muchu better people than we are today. They were more moral, more restrained, and just plain tougher than we are today. They didn't thin cougars and exterminate wolves because they ignored the environment, they did of because thy well understood the incompatability of wolves with humans. Humans have been the apex predator for thousands of years, and the top predator always reduces the competiton.

Sorry for the disjointed post--it is a pain to post from an iPhone.

 

[kerbyj]

I've seen ONE in Josephine County a couple of miles south of Grants Pass and thought I was going nuts (despite having a witness) until I mentioned it to to a friend who lived in that area and he said "You're not the first one who's told me that."

My great grandmother's father trapped and hunted livestock killing wolves for the feds back around the turn of the century. He kept several captives (taken as cubs) to collect scent from and my grandmother grew up around those and even helped her father on ocassion.

She had some pretty strong opinions about bringing them back and thought it was a HUGE mistake.

 

[2506]

Wouldn't that make him your great, great grandfather?

 

[accurateone]

Facts NOT Rhetoric...... www.saveelk.com
Accurateone. Gov't statistics, Pictures, Recording of federal conference... why the introduction of incorrect species.

 

[CEF1959]

Those elk and deer ain't out there for your personal shooting pleasure (or to make money on). Let the wolves, 'yotes, elk, deer, big horns, cougars, bears, etc. all in, and let 'em work out the equilibrium.

It worked just fine in the Oregon Country until, oh, about 1850.

 

[eriknemily]

Those elk and deer ain't out there for your personal shooting pleasure (or to make money on). Let the wolves, 'yotes, elk, deer, big horns, cougars, bears, etc. all in, and let 'em work out the equilibrium.

It worked just fine in the Oregon Country until, oh, about 1850.

Wasn't that with the Timber wolf and not the much larger Grey wolf?

 

[kerbyj]

Wouldn't that make him your great, great grandfather?

Yes, it does, but as I didn't know him, I always refer to him as "great grandma's father".

 

[Gunner3456]

I don't hold a position on this. But what's this I learned about the balance of nature?

As I understand it, if the deer and elk populations drop, the predators starve and their populations drop. Then the prey gains ground and then... For thousands of years it worked.

No matter how bad the wolves, they can't kill all of the prey. Besides, I certainguarantee you that the ranchers will kill their azzes when they begin to prey on livestock. You can bet your life on it. The ranchers won't get caught, either. Heck, they already assume a right to all the deer and elk they want because they feed them. They take one any time the freezer is getting low.

Consider the large ranches in Eastern Ore, Wash, and Idaho, Montana, Wyo, etc. There is no way to police them. Man is the real predator.

Just rambling...