Why own a gun that you don't shoot?

[CLT65]

I don't buy guns to sell, nor do I buy them for investment, but I do have a question about this. Is it illegal to purchase a gun as an investment?

For example, if I had the money and interest, and bought a high-grade SXS shotgun to put in my safe with an eye towards it being worth thousands more a decade later after retirement, would that be illegal? How so?

Again, buying and selling and skirting the law is not something I'm interested in, in any way. I'm not even talking about getting close to the appearance of being "engaged in the business"; I'm just talking about the guy who finds a good deal and sticks it in the safe knowing he'll sell it again sooner or later for more.

I know the kind of guys some of you are talking about. I remember a lot of the gun show guys I met growing up in rural southern Oregon, a couple of them in particular. I was young, and never had the money to buy and sell stuff, and I've always been the type to cautiously follow the law, but I'd see these guys at one show after another, buying and selling guns, cash and carry. I always wondered how they got away with it, so out in the open like they were.

Then, sometime around the late '90s or early 2000's, the ATF rolled through the area and put some serious fear into them, put a stop to it in a big hurry. I don't know the particulars, just gun show scuttlebutt. I'm pretty sure one guy went to prison around that time, but he was seriously and openly flaunting federal gun laws.

 

[BSG 75]

I don't buy guns to sell, nor do I buy them for investment, but I do have a question about this. Is it illegal to purchase a gun as an investment?

No. You don't have to sell items at a loss in order to stay legal.

For example, if I had the money and interest, and bought a high-grade SXS shotgun to put in my safe with an eye towards it being worth thousands more a decade later after retirement, would that be illegal?

No. You don't have to sell items at a loss in order to stay legal.

You need a license if you are "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms". If you are not "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms" you don't need a license to stay legal. Someone who buys one shotgun and sells it years later at a profit is not engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. While there is not a rigid definition of when someone is "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms" the government looks at several factors:

• Federal law requires that persons who are engaged in the business of dealing in firearms be licensed by ATF. The penalty for dealing in firearms without a license is up to five years in prison, a fine up to $250,000, or both.
• A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions at gun shows or through the internet .
• Determining whether you are "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of your activities.
• As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.
• Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

The people you mentioned were repetitively buying and selling firearms for a profit.

 

[11Charlie]

Sorry, but there shouldn't be confusion on this. If you buy guns for the express purpose of turning a profit, you are by definition doing it for business and need a FFL. There is no magic number that is the threshold.

I remember the Obama administration directing the ATF to crack down on this a few years back. Never heard of any cases of small timers getting jammed up, but I agree that putting it on the web forever may not be prudent.

You can buy a gun, and change your mind five minutes later, and sell it though.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

And I didn't say otherwise. I stepped in stopped a situation and put the thread back on topic if you all want to discuss legality's lets do it in a different thread in a different section.

 

[DB is Here]

I buy high and sell low...so I'm good.

 

[jbett98]

Speaking of felonies, isn't that what happens when you buy/sell government issued property that somehow walked away from their possession since WW1 and ended up in private hands?

 

[KKG]

I've always been curious why I'll see guns in the ads being sold that haven't ever been shot. I get not shooting older relic's if the cost to repair isn't worth someone doing. I'm talking about the 4-5 year old gun that has sat in a safe for it's entire life, yet hasn't been shot...What am I missing?

It's Very Simple; it's caller "Collecting" -- at least in some cases.

 

[CLT65]

No. You don't have to sell items at a loss in order to stay legal.



No. You don't have to sell items at a loss in order to stay legal.

You need a license if you are "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms". If you are not "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms" you don't need a license to stay legal. Someone who buys one shotgun and sells it years later at a profit is not engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. While there is not a rigid definition of when someone is "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms" the government looks at several factors:



The people you mentioned were repetitively buying and selling firearms for a profit.

Exactly my point. I've met people over the years who have trouble making that distinction, one way or the other.

Anyhow, sorry for contributing to the thread drift. Back to the original topic- like I mentioned before, If I get a new (to me) gun, I have this uncontrollable urge to fire it, at least once. For example, many years ago we were given a very old (1890's) Stevens single shot rifle that has been in the family for a very, very long time. The only problem is that .25 Stevens Long rimfire ammo hasn't been made since the early '40s. I had three rounds in my collection; one of them went off.

I can't imagine buying a brand new gun and not immediately taking it to the range to try it out. It's like buying a new car and not driving it!

To each their own. I find it interesting how we all think differently. I guess that's what makes the world interesting.

 

[Jcon268]

I've always been curious why I'll see guns in the ads being sold that haven't ever been shot. I get not shooting older relic's if the cost to repair isn't worth someone doing. I'm talking about the 4-5 year old gun that has sat in a safe for it's entire life, yet hasn't been shot...What am I missing?

I'm worse. I buy something new, shoot under 500 rounds and then start drooling over some other gun so have to sell off mine at a heavy loss to recoup some of the funds. I've probably lost $2k over the years just in losses from buying and then selling off/trading items because I change my mind. This is not for the wife to hear.

 

[nammac]

I'm worse. I buy something new, shoot under 500 rounds and then start drooling over some other gun so have to sell off mine at a heavy loss to recoup some of the funds. I've probably lost $2k over the years just in losses from buying and then selling off/trading items because I change my mind. This is not for the wife to hear.

Only $2K, eh? Y'all must be kinda new to buyin, selling and tradin...

 

[DB is Here]

I'm worse. I buy something new, shoot under 500 rounds and then start drooling over some other gun so have to sell off mine at a heavy loss to recoup some of the funds. I've probably lost $2k over the years just in losses from buying and then selling off/trading items because I change my mind. This is not for the wife to hear.

It's called stupid tax, I'm well versed.

 

[Jcon268]

Only $2K, eh? Y'all must be kinda new to buyin, selling and tradin...

That's just my estimated losses from being stupid. But yes, I'm relatively new...only been doing it a few years. So looks like I've got a lot more mind changing to do and money to lose!

 

[nammac]

That's just my estimated losses from being stupid. But yes, I'm relatively new...only been doing it a few years. So looks like I've got a lot more mind changing to do and money to lose!

Welcome to the club! As @DB Wesner said earlier, buy high, sell low... sometimes it a money losing proposition, sometimes it's not...

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Just fwiw my form 4 for some items that were atf approved said "investment and all other legal purposes."

Methinks some folks are making rules in addition to the law.

 

[Boboclown]

That's just my estimated losses from being stupid. But yes, I'm relatively new...only been doing it a few years. So looks like I've got a lot more mind changing to do and money to lose!

Sometimes you pay to learn what fits and what don't. Already considering dumping my .300 BLk in favor of a draco (cause ak ak ak and also refuse to defile the FAL with a FAL pistol), just part of the game.

 

[Boboclown]

I don't buy guns to sell, nor do I buy them for investment, but I do have a question about this. Is it illegal to purchase a gun as an investment?

For example, if I had the money and interest, and bought a high-grade SXS shotgun to put in my safe with an eye towards it being worth thousands more a decade later after retirement, would that be illegal? How so?

Again, buying and selling and skirting the law is not something I'm interested in, in any way. I'm not even talking about getting close to the appearance of being "engaged in the business"; I'm just talking about the guy who finds a good deal and sticks it in the safe knowing he'll sell it again sooner or later for more.

I know the kind of guys some of you are talking about. I remember a lot of the gun show guys I met growing up in rural southern Oregon, a couple of them in particular. I was young, and never had the money to buy and sell stuff, and I've always been the type to cautiously follow the law, but I'd see these guys at one show after another, buying and selling guns, cash and carry. I always wondered how they got away with it, so out in the open like they were.

Then, sometime around the late '90s or early 2000's, the ATF rolled through the area and put some serious fear into them, put a stop to it in a big hurry. I don't know the particulars, just gun show scuttlebutt. I'm pretty sure one guy went to prison around that time, but he was seriously and openly flaunting federal gun laws.

People buy collectable guns as an investment to sell high later. If its not something you do reptitively enough for the ATF to think its a business, its just some random private sale to them (whether done through FFL or not, private sales being different in different states).

 

[Jcon268]

Sometimes you pay to learn what fits and what don't. Already considering dumping my .300 BLk in favor of a draco (cause ak ak ak and also refuse to defile the FAL with a FAL pistol), just part of the game.

For me it's less a matter of fits than a matter of obsessive compulsive purchasing disorder. I do enjoy trading although I'm not sure my wife enjoys having to stop to meet someone every time we go out to dinner or a Friday night movie. It is what it is.

 

[SmitKoWitz]

It's illegal. It's still a straw purchase if you buy it intending to sell it or make a profit. Look it up. They do care. That's why it's a felony if you don't have a Federal firearms licence. #FFL. At the very least don't put it in writing. You have convicted yourself. You sir are absolutely wrong and giving bad advice. Have any of you read your gun rights or laws. Ignorance is not an excuse of the law. Better brush up.

(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

 

[SmitKoWitz]

As for STRAW Purchase, buying a gun and selling it has nothing to do with Straw Purchase. A straw purchase is a purchase in which a (legally authorized) person agrees to acquire a firearm for someone ineligible to purchase the firearm. The straw purchaser is the person with the clean background that purchases firearms specifically on behalf of the person prohibited.

 

[Hillbilly4Real]

As for STRAW Purchase, buying a gun and selling it has nothing to do with Straw Purchase. A straw purchase is a purchase in which a (legally authorized) person agrees to acquire a firearm for someone ineligible to purchase the firearm. The straw purchaser is the person with the clean background that purchases firearms specifically on behalf of the person prohibited.

Look, I'm sorry I even tried to help. The original post I was referring to. The gentleman wrote that he often bought several guns at a time to turn a profit. You have to have an FFL to buy with the intent to resell at a profit. That's clear. Take it or leave it. Go to jail I don't care anymore. Read the actual statute that a user posted earlier. There's no such thing as a state firearms license. It's Federal. All I was saying is probably not smart to put it in writing when it's a clear violation of Federal law .The administrator said take it elsewhere. Start a new thread we can argue there.

 

[wired]

As for STRAW Purchase, buying a gun and selling it has nothing to do with Straw Purchase. A straw purchase is a purchase in which a (legally authorized) person agrees to acquire a firearm for someone ineligible to purchase the firearm. The straw purchaser is the person with the clean background that purchases firearms specifically on behalf of the person prohibited.

They dont have to be ineligible. A straw purchase is a purchase for someone else regardless of their eligibility to own or possess the gun if the gun is not a bonafide gift.