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Along with that thought, vast knowledge will also be lost.
Yet another reason to avoid collapse.

Rome invented arguably the best method/ingredients for making concrete a couple thousand years ago. That society collapsed, people lost that knowledge. It wasn't until about 1,700 years (!) later that an Englishman invented something close to what they'd done.

Twenty first century methods and materials are even more complex, and known by fewer people. Collapse will involve not having a whole lot of things.
 
Well, I took a look. All mumbo jumbo to me......................but following current property values in my hood, something ain't right. A past city manager referred to some of the shacks in the hood as "bulldozer bait". I'll tend to say that in 2018 that was a maybe, but it was a roof over someone's head. They (property owners) were not homeless. Today that bulldozer bait is selling for over $250K.

Far too many people standing/sitting on street corners all over the U.S. holding cardboard signs. That much I'm sure.

Foreverlost,
Bulldozer bait here in Idaho because the transplants will pay...apparently

215 N Pine Ave, Emmett
$500,000 · 5beds · 2baths

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Yet another reason to avoid collapse.

Rome invented arguably the best method/ingredients for making concrete a couple thousand years ago. That society collapsed, people lost that knowledge. It wasn't until about 1,700 years (!) later that an Englishman invented something close to what they'd done.

Twenty first century methods and materials are even more complex, and known by fewer people. Collapse will involve not having a whole lot of things.
To my knowledge, we still don't have a concrete mix that can match the sea water abuse being taken by Roman docks, some of which are still standing or submerged, but still there.
 
Need the ashes from the corpses of your enemies. :s0033:
Some people have done some experiments with volcanic ash to replicate the Roman mix. There is a LOT of ash from Mt. St. Helens, but not enough to supply all the demand we have for concrete. Just the same, if I had the $, I would pay someone to ship it and make the stronger concrete.
 
Had one FB account, not under my name. From a work computer. Don't know if that's still possible but I did. It sucked balls back then, like descent into an asylum when I just browsed. Used it for work related communication, then quit doing even that.

It's always been cancer. Now it's great world workers uniting for victory and great people's liberation army cancer. never liked it but didn't see THAT coming.
 
Had one FB account, not under my name. From a work computer. Don't know if that's still possible but I did. It sucked balls back then, like descent into an asylum when I just browsed. Used it for work related communication, then quit doing even that.

It's always been cancer. Now it's great world workers uniting for victory and great people's liberation army cancer. never liked it but didn't see THAT coming.
Under The Radar
Off The Grid
Locked and Loaded
Over and Out
 
The book Debt: The First Five Thousand Years has many insights into the relative roles and histories of trade, money, and credit. One big surprise is that while economists assume money came first and credit/debt came much later, all the serious anthropological data indicate the opposite. Credit came first. And credit facilitated trade. And the trade was among friends and other members of the tribe or neighboring friendly tribes. Not with strangers. Money everywhere comes much later, is associated with trade with strangers, and is as much ceremonial as a medium of exchange. That is, the money--the necklace of cowry shells, for example, is given to the chief as a gift when the two tribes make an agreement. The necklace is kept as a symbol of that relationship, not used as a medium of exchange. Using inedibble physical objects as generic media of exchange comes much later.

Credit is still a major facilitator of trade in rural or farming communities. It can be formal but often isn't. The woman who makes great apple pies makes two and gives one to friends or neighbors. They in turn help her get her firewood stacked. Nobody says "I'll do this for you if you do that for me." Its just a matter of friends and neighbors sharing with and helping each other when they can. Sometimes the arrangement is more formal. Your family has extra apples and gives them to the neighbor who makes great pies if she gives you one of the pies. The neighbor who helps butcher the hog gets some of the meat. Volunteers in my plant breeding fields get all the corn, winter squash, and dry beans they want.

There is love and celebration that comes with those four jars of apple butter that a friend gives me. It's made from a lovely full-flavored apple variety, grown, harvested, cooked, spiced, and canned to perfection, the best she has to offer. I in turn give her seeds of vegetabke varieties I've bred. Its the best I have to offer. Which of the hunters here have never gifted meat when they had plenty?

My guess is that in a serious long-term social breakdown, trade would initially be mostly with friends and neighbors--people you trust whom you want to help survive. And the pattern would be primarily some combination of credit, sharing/gifting, formal trade, and use of ad hoc edible/useful media of exchange such as salt, sugar, cooking spices, aspirin, matches, and ammo, esp .22 ammo.
That's a great book,, @OldBroad44 !And thanks for saying what I was thinking, only better.
 
Ammo (guns & butter)...age old wisdom. Safety first and then you got to eat, and ammo could fix both of those for you…
Hmmm. Yes. Lets expand this a bit. First is immediate safety including self defense. If someone is breaking into your home right now, you need to be able to stop them right now. Second is maintaining proper core body temperature. If you're in Minnesota in winter you need serious winter clothing to even walk a couple of blocks in winter on a mild day (such as one that's only minus 20 F instead of minus 40) without frost biting stuff. A person whose car breaks down in the boonies is going to freeze to death by morning unless they are carrying heavy duty clothing, parka, blankets, down sleeping bag, etc. We just went through a record heat wave here in oregon. Its likely hundreds of people died from the heat though we haven't got estimates yet as to how many. It got to 116 in Portland. 111 at my house. 93 in my house. All fans and cold water in my place depend upon electricity. I stockpile water. Fortunately the ekectrucity didnt go out. Third is water. You can't live long without it, especially if its hot. Probably somewhere about fourth is getting the family together. If you are at work youll want to get home to your family. If roads are blocked you may need to walk a day or more. Fifth is food. Most of us could probably live for at least a month without food. We would burn up about a pound of body fat per day without food. It wouldn't be pleasant. But for most who are packing a few extra pounds, its possible. Sixth would be longer term self defense or safety issues. Such as obtaining a gun, ammo, or people to team up with if you don't already have them. Unrated would be any meds or medical supplies you or your family might need, depending the seriousness of the medical issues.
 

Speaking of limited shelf life...what's the 'best if used by date on the above mentioned nookie?
Best if used by never. If you need some, don't get it from someone who is trading it for food, shelter, whatever. There are way too many STDs these days. And in a SHTF you aren't going to have access to the serious injection based antibiotics that currently cure diseases like syphilis. Or aids medicines. Etc. Figure that in a SHTF STDs will explode.
 
Best if used by never. If you need some, don't get it from someone who is trading it for food, shelter, whatever. There are way too many STDs these days. And in a SHTF you aren't going to have access to the serious injection based antibiotics that currently cure diseases like syphilis. Or aids medicines. Etc. Figure that in a SHTF STDs will explode.
:s0093: no doubt condominiums will have a trade value.:D:s0140:
 
Just a note on "burning fat" and doing without food; yes, a lot of us are overweight - I am about 50# over the highest weight I should be at (unless it was all muscle; at 6'6" I could theoretically be my current weight if it was muscle, which it isn't).

But a human can't just continue without any nutrition at all - even with fat to burn, a person will have health problems on a "starvation diet" and various parts of the body, especially vital organs, will start to fail - people who have done this on purpose have started to have problems with kidneys and their liver and their various other organs. The human body does not react well over time to just not eating food. So you might survive, but you will likely be sick over time, and possibly need serious medical care.
 
Just a note on "burning fat" and doing without food; yes, a lot of us are overweight - I am about 50# over the highest weight I should be at (unless it was all muscle; at 6'6" I could theoretically be my current weight if it was muscle, which it isn't).

But a human can't just continue without any nutrition at all - even with fat to burn, a person will have health problems on a "starvation diet" and various parts of the body, especially vital organs, will start to fail - people who have done this on purpose have started to have problems with kidneys and their liver and their various other organs. The human body does not react well over time to just not eating food. So you might survive, but you will likely be sick over time, and possibly need serious medical care.
Just a note on "burning fat" and doing without food; yes, a lot of us are overweight - I am about 50# over the highest weight I should be at (unless it was all muscle; at 6'6" I could theoretically be my current weight if it was muscle, which it isn't).

But a human can't just continue without any nutrition at all - even with fat to burn, a person will have health problems on a "starvation diet" and various parts of the body, especially vital organs, will start to fail - people who have done this on purpose have started to have problems with kidneys and their liver and their various other organs. The human body does not react well over time to just not eating food. So you might survive, but you will likely be sick over time, and possibly need serious medical care.
@The Heretic -- Thanks for the friendly challenge. There's controversy about how big a deal it is to survive without food for a month. I have one friend who does a one-month water fast every year or two. But he's in superb health. And has a superb diet of unprocessed foods and lots of vegetables. I have several friends who do three day fasts at least once a year. And there is probably a difference between those whose bodies are used to occasional fasting and those who aren't. So I went and read some more on it. There are various articles you can find by googling. I still think most healthy peoole who are carrying a little extra body fat can survive weeks without food assuming plenty of water-- but only hours or days without water. A take-home bit of useful info I found was that B vitamins are necessary for breaking down your own body fat. So the nutritional quality of your diet prior to the fast matters. And a fast with vitamin supplements and without are very different. This suggests that stockpiling vitamin supplements is more important than I thought. Whatever the importance of vitamin supplements or lack thereof during ordinary times (for those eating normal amounts of food including animal products and plenty of vegetables ), the vitamin supplements may matter a lot in SHTS scenarios when diet may not only be poor, but vitamin supplements might be needed to deal with periods of involuntary fasting.
 
Just opinion but in a collapse of any size most folks over 50 won't see the end of it. By 50 you have led the life and lifestyle that determines your death. What you hoarde will be for those you leave behind. :s0093:
 

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