The 2 CRS guys on trial by ATF were found guilty

[Ura-Ki]

I get that too, but I think where the gooberments case fails is that "intent" to become a part does not equate to "it is" a "part" that can be regulated. Much like an 80% frame/receiver. It's sold with the intent to assemble a firearm, but in it's form from the mfg... it is not a firearm. Although the arguement that they are is much stronger that they might be by appearances. With the key card.... a flat rectangular piece of metal doesn't look anything like an auto sear.

Another interesting point brought up is the 1A issue. The example given was the well known anarchrist cookbook. The authors "intent" is to instruct people on how to build destructive devices, but the book itself is protected and not an actual "destructive device"... and as far as I'm aware... neither the author, the publisher nor amazon (or other media retailers) have ever been charged with a crime for providing information intended to be used to mfg illegal destructive devices. Or... for promoting the sale of an illegal part/device.

Kind of like a key card is not in an of itself a "part", but a guide on how to construct one.

I remember when that whole Anarchists Cookbook thing first blew up, you couldn't buy it anywhere, and if caught with a copy, faced serious consequences, and were labeled as a terrorist! I found a copy at a Gun Show, along with a few books on making your own suppressors, so I bought them, knowing full well what would happen IF I got caught with them back then! Today, we know that it was all bullsh!t scare tactics, and they worked, until they didn't!

 

[Ura-Ki]

That is exactly what CRS and Auto Key Card did and why they are in trouble. They advertised them as "machine guns" as well as posting a video telling people how to cut out the lightning link.

And here are the 1st amendment challenges, WHAT is Protected Speech, and what isn't?
Putting up video on U-Toob dosn't violate their terms nor the 1st ( Which is it's self is a whole nother ball of worms in a #10 can, I.E Internet protections of publisher vs Content Creator), so I don't see "Intent" there ether, these guys NEVER expressed actual intent, only showed what was possible if certain instructions were followed! ( Which brings up the whole how did they get it to work, when the goobers at ATF couldn't?)
One HAS to consider what IS protected, and here I think the Gooberment has overstepped bigly on the whole "INTENT" deal!

 

[ColeInOregon]

And here are the 1st amendment challenges, WHAT is Protected Speech, and what isn't?
Putting up video on U-Toob dosn't violate their terms nor the 1st ( Which is it's self is a whole nother ball of worms in a #10 can, I.E Internet protections of publisher vs Content Creator), so I don't see "Intent" there ether, these guys NEVER expressed actual intent, only showed what was possible if certain instructions were followed! ( Which brings up the whole how did they get it to work, when the goobers at ATF couldn't?)
One HAS to consider what IS protected, and here I think the Gooberment has overstepped bigly on the whole "INTENT" deal!

"Hoover stated that his viewers could cut a lightning link out of the Auto Key Card, "drop it in your receiver, scratch your full auto itch, throw it away when you're done" and "no one's the wiser." "

IANAL but that sure looks like intent to me.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

"Hoover stated that his viewers could cut a lightning link out of the Auto Key Card, "drop it in your receiver, scratch your full auto itch, throw it away when you're done" and "no one's the wiser." "

IANAL but that sure looks like intent to me.

Maybe because you aren't like baby Moses?












Adrift in da'Nile

 

[solv3nt]

Soo... that's all they have it seems. The basis charge for all charges being their contending that they were mfg'ing and distributing "machine gun conversion PARTS".

Everything hinges then on if a judge and jury accepts the interpretation of the NFA by the alphabet that lines on a piece of flat metal constitute an actual "part". That seems like quite a stretch. I mean, if you put lines on a rectangular block of aluminum... is that a "firearm"?

I'm sticking with the, "we know it doesn't hold water but we will destroy you, anyway... because we can" theory.

All long arms are one saw cut from an SBR.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

All long arms are one saw cut from an SBR.

True story! I wonder how things would go if you started selling a kit with a vice, hacksaw and a tape measure marked "Cut in this area to get your own TAX FREE SBR"

My guess is that it wouldn't go well for anyone that tried that

 

[raftman]

"Hoover stated that his viewers could cut a lightning link out of the Auto Key Card, "drop it in your receiver, scratch your full auto itch, throw it away when you're done" and "no one's the wiser." "

IANAL but that sure looks like intent to me.

Would this also make AK, CETME, G3, etc flats actually firearms then? They're made with the intent, come with instructions, etc.

 

[ColeInOregon]

Would this also make AK, CETME, G3, etc flats actually firearms then? They're made with the intent, come with instructions, etc.

Again, IANAL, but if they were sold as machine guns, and the company gave instruction on how to asseble said machine gun, then yes, the intent is there.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

The Auto Key Card guy may have had a case based on 1a, however when him and CRS decided to advertise these as machine guns they crossed the line from art to intent. The prosecution brought up atleast 2 examples of CRS advertising the auto keycard as a "machine gun" and also a video where he told purchasers how to cut out the lightning link.
Also witnesses stated that they had purchased the cards with the intent to convert their weapons to machine guns in the event of a societal collapse.
IANAL but that seems like clear intent to sell illegal machine guns.

Remember when we had freedom? Yeah remember that? That was pretty awesome. Back when we had freedom.

 

[Ura-Ki]

"Hoover stated that his viewers could cut a lightning link out of the Auto Key Card, "drop it in your receiver, scratch your full auto itch, throw it away when you're done" and "no one's the wiser." "

IANAL but that sure looks like intent to me.

THAT becomes protected Speech, Same as telling someone how to change their oil on their car, or adding a supercharger to boost performance!
This is no different! It also begs the question, what constitutes an actual machine gun, is it a single part, or is it a combination of parts, and are any of those parts expressly limited BY CONGRESS under any respective act?

 

[ColeInOregon]

THAT becomes protected Speech, Same as telling someone how to change their oil on their car, or adding a supercharger to boost performance!
This is no different! It also begs the question, what constitutes an actual machine gun, is it a single part, or is it a combination of parts, and are any of those parts expressly limited BY CONGRESS under any respective act?

Well apparently the court and jury don't agree with your assessment of protected speech and until congress limits the powers of the aft the definition of a machine gun (which was posted earlier) still stands.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

THAT becomes protected Speech, Same as telling someone how to change their oil on their car, or adding a supercharger to boost performance!
This is no different! It also begs the question, what constitutes an actual machine gun, is it a single part, or is it a combination of parts, and are any of those parts expressly limited BY CONGRESS under any respective act?

The idea of "protected" speech is becoming more and more of a novelty as time passes, unfortunately.

We have very real issues with what is permissible on air," says the airheaded bartender, Cortez...

"Incitement of violence": AOC calls for Fox to be punished over Jan. 6

“We have very real issues with what is permissible on air,” the congresswoman said in a recent interview.

www.salon.com

 

[Ura-Ki]

Well apparently the court and jury don't agree with your assessment of protected speech and until congress limits the powers of the aft the definition of a machine gun (which was posted earlier) still stands.

This is where the appeal up to the Circuit Court will correct things ( Hopefully) and we can move past all this!
This fight ain't over, not by any stretch!

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Remember when we had freedom? Yeah remember that? That was pretty awesome. Back when we had freedom.

View attachment 1411196

The law on this has been pretty much the same since 1934, so no, I doubt many folks on here do remember before that

 

[CamoDeafie]

Okay why are they (ATF/DOJ) focusing only on these guys and not all the gangbangers and idiots on Twitter, Reddit, YT, TikTok showing off their Glock Switch literal machine guns? I mean if these are ""protected speech""......

Seriously you can just search "glock switch" on YT.....

 

[CLT65]

Would this also make AK, CETME, G3, etc flats actually firearms then? They're made with the intent, come with instructions, etc.

It's not an area that I'm terribly familiar with, but aren't they usually sold as intended for hobbyists making their own semi-auto firearms, as opposed to machine guns?

As far as first amendment claims, I wonder if it would have been different if they had made them out of cardboard or plastic, as a clear template, instead of metal that becomes the actual device.

Plastic may have been 1A protected information, whereas metal can be considered an illegal device in itself.

 

[solv3nt]

Okay why are they (ATF/DOJ) focusing only on these guys and not all the gangbangers and idiots on Twitter, Reddit, YT, TikTok showing off their Glock Switch literal machine guns? I mean if these are ""protected speech""......

Seriously you can just search "glock switch" on YT.....

Because that's racist!

 

[CamoDeafie]

Because that's racist!

There's also white gangbangers and idiots showing off their glock switches on YT methinks you're being a bit "rascist"

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Okay why are they (ATF/DOJ) focusing only on these guys and not all the gangbangers and idiots on Twitter, Reddit, YT, TikTok showing off their Glock Switch literal machine guns? I mean if these are ""protected speech""......

Seriously you can just search "glock switch" on YT.....

I added "arrest" to that, turns out that gets a lot of results

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=glock+switch+arrest

 

[CamoDeafie]

And there's still videos showing how to make them and promoting specific 3d print sites while the autokey card sites are still seized by the ATF...