So ice no power no cell no net no cable

[arakboss]

At least we're not as incompetent as the people running Texas. Their power isn't down because of trees taking out power lines, but because their power plants didn't have the winterization needed to handle a storm of this magnitude.

4 MILLION households without power this morning, and another storm hitting them Wednesday (actually the same storm that just hit us in the NW).

Homes and buildings flooding from frozen pipes. 100+ car pileups. Hours long lines at grocery stores because people don't have fresh food at home. Gas stations without gas for your generator. People going on 4+ days without power with single digit temperatures all because they didn't prep their power plants for single digit temperatures. Total disaster (officially after Abbott asked Biden to declare TX a federal disaster area).

Wait until we are all forced to drive electric cars to stop global warming. Governments are really nuts sometimes.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Wait until we are all forced to drive electric cars to stop global warming. Governments are really nuts sometimes.

Thank the Jesus it's illegal to use natural gas in new construction and in industry in Seattle and other locations.






not

 

[USMC1911]

I am game for getting rid of power company monopolies but not goverment run power companies. So if Pacific power wants to come in to PGEs territory and set up a bunch of new fancy underground power lines, I say let them. Maybe xfinity and ziply will want to join in too. I hope the new competition reimburses homeowners generously for their inconvenience. Take a look at your water and sewer bills to see what government run utilities look like.

Edit: Alternatives to power company monopolies already exist, but often times local governments force homeowners to use whatever monopoly is operating in their local area. Alternative energy is one solution or going off grid. Good luck going off grid in most cities though. They will fine you up the wahzoo and eventually have you removed from your home. I am fortunate to have an off grid second home and I'm not beholden to any utility company there. The local government on the other hand could give me all kinds of grief for having an off grid home, if I ever get on their radar. Talk about ultimate monopoly, where is my option for different government leadership.

A really good amount of power in the NW is already supplied by the government. Bonneville power is the single largest suppliers in the NW.

As for a new company just coming in and puttimg in new lines is not really feasible. Below is a fairly a good example of how power agreements work. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sa...ew-franchise-agreement-negotiations?_amp=true Most utility's have exclusive agreements with whatever municipality it operates in. If say Pacific Power wanted to get into the PDX area they would need to purchase or lease the rights to use the existing equipment that the existing utility PGE has already installed. Its extremely cost prohibitive to start a whole new system from scratch as no customer exists to pay for the new system. I am currently working on SDGE property. All the city cares about is who pays the most for the agreement.

 

[Provincial]

I live near the end of the power grid. In my lifetime, we have had short power outages at least once every winter, sometimes more. Our supplier is PP&L, but up until the mid-1950's it was a Rural Electrification Administration (government) supplier. PP&L was a godsend for reliability. We plan for the outages, and with gravity-fed water, wood heat, and a barbecue the generator/transfer switch is a convenience. It keeps the fridges and freezers cold and the lights on. I use a portable light plant as a 6KW, industrial-grade generator.

This time the phone went out and didn't get going again until Tuesday afternoon. Usually, it is unaffected, and it is buried for the last two miles.

We have other property that powered by a co-op supplied by BPA. The co-op tries really hard to keep us supplied, but in weather events it is short-handed and takes much longer to restore service.

The utility companies are regulated in Oregon by the Public Utility Commission, the PUC. I call it the "Practically Useless Commission." PP&L was bought out twice, once by Scottish Power (yes, a United Kingdom company) that closed the local repair/construction centers and cut every cost they could find, even if it meant poorer service. Then they sold it to Berkshire Hathaway (Warren Buffet), so you know when such a savvy investor buys a regulated company, he doesn't expect the government to hold it's feet to the fire.

 

[BigDog67]

Thank the Jesus it's illegal to use natural gas in new construction and in industry in Seattle and other locations.






not

Just read where the morons in Oly want to do that to the entire state.

 

[dfisher1981]

Wait until we are all forced to drive electric cars to stop global warming. Governments are really nuts sometimes.

That's a common myth. The daily demand curve for electricity is at its lowest from 10PM-6AM, when most people would be charging their cars.

 

[The Heretic]

I for one would like to have an electric vehicle if it met my specs (preferably a 4WD pickup with a battery that can be charged in 5-10 minutes) and there were as many charging stations as there are gas stations.

Don't want to be tied to an electricity supplier? Become your own - get some solar panels - use your vehicle as the battery bank and have silent backup power. Not everybody can do that, but enough can that it would make a difference IMO.

 

[Certaindeaf]

That's a common myth. The daily demand curve for electricity is at its lowest from 10PM-6AM, when most people would be charging their cars.

What's not a myth is that since those Rube Goldberg contraptions only have a range of five miles, people have to charge them all day and all night wherever they happen to be.

 

[dfisher1981]

What's not a myth is that since those Rube Goldberg contraptions only have a range of five miles, people have to charge them all day and all night wherever they happen to be.

There's no need to lie about range of electric vehicles when you're posting on the internet. You can infer that other people posting here have an internet connection, so they can do a quick search and find some real world tests: https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32603216/ev-range-explained/

It's not 300-400 miles like a gasoline powered car, but it's not 5 miles either. The average is around 175 miles of electric range. Prior to COVID, the average number of miles driven per day per American was 29 miles, according to AAA: https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-motorists-drive/ I think after COVID, that number is going to drop by a lot, but even if it stays the same, 175 miles > 29 miles.

Electric vehicles aren't an unanswered question. Ask every automobile CEO on the record, and 100% of them will say that new gasoline powered vehicles will be for limited use in 15 years (limited to heavy duty/long haul/construction vehicles). Any light/medium duty vehicle will be fully electric. The horse and carriage industry was in the same situation in the early 1900s. Gas powered vehicles had limited range, power and capacity, and gas stations were hard to find. Sound familiar? You're the horse and carriage guy 100 years later.

We should be improving our electrical grid for future demand, not sticking our heads in the sand.

 

[USMC1911]

There's no need to lie about range of electric vehicles when you're posting on the internet. You can infer that other people posting here have an internet connection, so they can do a quick search and find some real world tests: https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32603216/ev-range-explained/

It's not 300-400 miles like a gasoline powered car, but it's not 5 miles either. The average is around 175 miles of electric range. Prior to COVID, the average number of miles driven per day per American was 29 miles, according to AAA: https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-motorists-drive/ I think after COVID, that number is going to drop by a lot, but even if it stays the same, 175 miles > 29 miles.

Electric vehicles aren't an unanswered question. Ask every automobile CEO on the record, and 100% of them will say that new gasoline powered vehicles will be for limited use in 15 years (limited to heavy duty/long haul/construction vehicles). Any light/medium duty vehicle will be fully electric. The horse and carriage industry was in the same situation in the early 1900s. Gas powered vehicles had limited range, power and capacity, and gas stations were hard to find. Sound familiar? You're the horse and carriage guy 100 years later.

We should be improving our electrical grid for future demand, not sticking our heads in the sand.

The horses and buggy is really a poor argument. The horse and buggy were deemed obsolete as a better mouse trap was invented. Gasoline vehicles will be obsolete as government policy not by free market consumer choice.

 

[Provincial]

The transition to electric transportation will be more difficult, and expensive, for rural residents. They have to travel further for supplies, education, and services. Charging stations will be located based on utilization, so they will concentrate in the urban areas. Government will raise the cost of fossil fuel to steer urban residents into electric vehicles, so rural residents will get a double whammy of high cost and less utility.

I agree that the range of electric vehicles has been extended, but unless there are great strides in power storage technology, we will see that plateau. Hybrid vehicles are going to be the most practical for rural residents, and the government should make a serious effort to keep the cost of transition affordable for them.

 

[dfisher1981]

The horses and buggy is really a poor argument. The horse and buggy were deemed obsolete as a better mouse trap was invented. Gasoline vehicles will be obsolete as government policy not by free market consumer choice.

Nope, I'm pretty sure the free markets have spoken. GM is phasing out gas on everything up to light duty trucks by 2035. Other companies are putting out even shorter timelines (typically ones with a less diverse lineup than GM).

The first gas powered cars weren't instantly better in every aspect than a horse and carriage. But the free market saw their current and future benefits and phased out carriages while phasing in gas powered cars. The free market is doing the same here.

GM doesn't make business decisions that cater to the rare use cases people come up with to justify keeping old technology. They will make business decisions that impact the largest section of their potential market. If 90% of their customers will have a better experience with electric cars and 10% won't, they are going with the 90% and not the 10%. I love the sound of a small block Chevy, but that's a 10% limited use case and I realize that is going to phase out over time.

 

[fd15k]

The transition to electric transportation will be more difficult, and expensive, for rural residents. They have to travel further for supplies, education, and services. Charging stations will be located based on utilization, so they will concentrate in the urban areas. Government will raise the cost of fossil fuel to steer urban residents into electric vehicles, so rural residents will get a double whammy of high cost and less utility.

I agree that the range of electric vehicles has been extended, but unless there are great strides in power storage technology, we will see that plateau. Hybrid vehicles are going to be the most practical for rural residents, and the government should make a serious effort to keep the cost of transition affordable for them.

Frankly, that's nonsense. The beauty of electric vehicles is that in majority of cases they don't require "gas station equivalents" aka charging stations. Most rural folks have electricity (normally), with service being around 200A. If one charges at half that amperage (most have built-in chargers for up to 50A at this time, but that's not an inherent limitation), that's about 640 miles of range in 8 hours. I would like to see rural folks who travel more than 640 miles per day for "supplies, education and services."

I understand the topic is highly technical, and not everyone around here is technical. So folks should ask questions they have instead of spreading FUD.

 

[BigDog67]

The last thing in the world that I want, need or will ever own is an electric vehicle of any kind. I simply have no interest what so ever.

 

[USMC1911]

Nope, I'm pretty sure the free markets have spoken. GM is phasing out gas on everything up to light duty trucks by 2035. Other companies are putting out even shorter timelines (typically ones with a less diverse lineup than GM).

The first gas powered cars weren't instantly better in every aspect than a horse and carriage. But the free market saw their current and future benefits and phased out carriages while phasing in gas powered cars. The free market is doing the same here.

GM doesn't make business decisions that cater to the rare use cases people come up with to justify keeping old technology. They will make business decisions that impact the largest section of their potential market. If 90% of their customers will have a better experience with electric cars and 10% won't, they are going with the 90% and not the 10%. I love the sound of a small block Chevy, but that's a 10% limited use case and I realize that is going to phase out over time.

So government mandated emissions like California's zero emissions standard by 2035 has nothing to do with GM or any other vehicle maker making decisions about moving out of gasoline powered cars? Kidding right? Hard to sell a product thats illegal. By just a California zero emissions standard you cut out 10% of the population of the USA to own a gas vehicle. I don't feel most average Americans would even dream about owning only electric means of transportation currently. Electric cars need to come a LONG way before then. I am sure car makers have high hopes of the government pushing zero emissions and some sort of huge tax credit or some sort of incentive as the government forces people into them as its the only thing available.

 

[fd15k]

Electric cars need to come a LONG way before then.

If you're waiting for one that will go a 1000mi on a charge and will charge in 5 minutes, I will say you won't see one in the next 50 years.

 

[USMC1911]

No but I think most people are looking for a vehicle that can drive a full day without a recharge that takes over 8 hours. Even a so call supercharger station takes over an hour and are few and far between. Want a day trip from Portland to Seattle? Not without a recharge. Want to go from Portland to Eugene? Better make sure your topped off before ya leave. Forget to plug it in before bed well ya cant stop real quick to fill up on the way to work. Like I said I think they have a long way to go before most people see them as a real alternative.

 

[fd15k]

No but I think most people are looking for a vehicle that can drive a full day without a recharge that takes over 8 hours.

Why ? Because the vehicle never sits idle for 8 hours ?

Even a so call supercharger station takes over an hour and are few and far between.

Not true. Superchargers push up to 250kW, largest battery pack currently in production is 100kW. In reality a full charge from fully depleted takes about 40 minutes, and 10 minutes of charging gives you some 160mi of range. There are some challenges with the battery cells themselves (how fast they can safely absorb a charge, especially at the top of capacity), it's really not a problem of the vehicles, and it's definitely not going away any time soon.

Want a day trip from Portland to Seattle? Not without a recharge.

Not necessarily. Some Tesla models achieve 400mi on a charge. May be tight, but doable.

Want to go from Portland to Eugene?

Definitely not an issue.

Like I said I think they have a long way to go before most people see them as a real alternative.

That's just your vivid imagination. If you actually search for feedback from people who switched to EVs (especially Tesla), you will have a hard time finding even 1 in 10 severely disappointed individuals.

 

[gmerkt]

I've lived in our place for over 33 years. We're not country, not city. We've had our share of power outages over the years. 60 hours was the longest by far. Most are much shorter. We might go a few years between outages that cause me to haul out my 25 plus year old generator. Which is a 4Kw, hooked up with the extension cord lash-up. It's been good enough over the years.

A neighbor across the road has one of those big built-in generators with a hood over it. Powered by its own long, hot-dog shaped propane vessel. I'd like to have such. I could afford it but now that I'm over 70 years old, I don't see the imperative as much. Changes in weather trends might cause me to rethink it.

We've got a wood stove. I've laid in I don't know how many cords of wood. I don't think I'll ever use it all at the current rate of use. We got a new heat pump installed in 2019, it's a marvel. Subject to loss of power, of course. That's where the importance of the stored firewood comes back into play.

There is a pump in our septic system. Last year, I had that and all the electricals replaced. When the electrician was doing the wiring, I had him put a plug inline with the wiring so I could remove the top of the vault and plug into my generator power should it become necessary.

I will no longer have a huge beautiful Red Maple to clean up each fall

Sorry to hear about this. I myself get very invested in plants that I've nurtured along through the years. Including those I've had to leave behind on sold properties.

If you get that 55 gal drum for storing gas..

I did this at one time. I discontinued the practice. Try moving 55 gallons of gasoline should the need arise. Without a forklift, that is. Most localities limit amounts of gasoline that you may legally store upon your property. 25 gallons in 5 gal. containers is pretty typical.

Every hour I do not work due to a power or internet outage, that is $55 I don't earn.

Something we have to think about now that working from home has become more common.

Homes and buildings flooding from frozen pipes.

Oh dear, I've given this a lot of thought WRT all those people in Texas who've gone long without heat. Without heat in the home, only insulation will save plumbing and this too has limits as to duration of exposure. When the thaw comes, it will be a real mess. I'm all set to cover this should we lose heat for an extended period of time.

It's not 300-400 miles like a gasoline powered car, but it's not 5 miles either. The average is around 175 miles of electric range. Prior to COVID, the average number of miles driven per day per American was 29 miles, according to AAA: https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-motorists-drive/ I think after COVID, that number is going to drop by a lot, but even if it stays the same, 175 miles > 29 miles.

Electric vehicles aren't an unanswered question. Ask every automobile CEO on the record, and 100% of them will say that new gasoline powered vehicles will be for limited use in 15 years (limited to heavy duty/long haul/construction vehicles). Any light/medium duty vehicle will be fully electric. The horse and carriage industry was in the same situation in the early 1900s. Gas powered vehicles had limited range, power and capacity, and gas stations were hard to find. Sound familiar? You're the horse and carriage guy 100 years later.

Whether it's by government fiat, consumer preference or corporate direction (based on consumer desire) and likely some combination of all three, my feeling is that this change is coming. To add to other initiatives, now there's a bill in the WA state legislature to mandate no new fossil fuel car sale here after 2030. Worldwide, car manufacturers are all getting ready for this. Even in China, where air pollution sometimes gets to epic proportions.

Charging stations won't be as much of an issue as some may think. Lots of people will get one installed in their own garage. That will be more common as time goes by. Which will to some degree delimit the use of electric cars in rural areas.

This conversion will have a big effect on the oil industry. Places like Saudi Arabia are already getting set for the decline of revenue from oil sales. They are diversifying into other stuff. Naturally, a major decline in use of fossil fuels will occur first in Europe and most of North America. Maybe concurrently in China. Oil producers will still have markets for a while in the Third World. OPEC and Russia will no longer be able to keep prices propped up, however. Producers of oil will be dealing with a buyer's market.

Retail petroleum products in Western countries, however, will gradually become a specialized market. There will be fewer outlets selling them. Consequently, there will be less marketing competition. My feeling is there could be a situation where on the one hand, you have cheap oil globally, but on the other hand, expensive gasoline for a shrinking retail market here. This isn't going to happen overnight. The change will take many years. This is just my opinion. Only time will reveal how it will work out.

 

[The Heretic]

If you're waiting for one that will go a 1000mi on a charge and will charge in 5 minutes, I will say you won't see one in the next 50 years.

I've never owned or driven a land vehicle that would go 1K miles on a single tank of fuel, nor even seen one that could go 1K miles using onboard fuel that could also refuel in 5 minutes.

I do however, plan to build one that can go 1K miles with onboard fuel - my diesel powered truck that I plan to convert to an RV, adding another diesel tank and two propane cylinders. I doubt I could refuel it in 5 minutes though.