SHTF Rifle - well used or shiny new?

[MikeE]

Here's an interesting take on the issue, and a good review by Greg Ellifritz of the E-Book The Family Survival Gun from Plan B Writers' Alliance. Their choice - a Mossberg 500. Not sure I agree, but the e-book is cheap so see for yourselves:
<broken link removed>

 

[erudne]

there are 260 million Americans?
260 million different sets of defense needs
the individual is the best person to determine their own needs and if they meditate on it the answer will appear to them
the choices are
handgun
shotgun
rifle
cudgel
bow/edged weapon

 

[cookie]

Really guys. Obama is our president and HE WILL protect us from all difficulties. Then Hillary 2016 will be the icing on the cake for this country.

 

[Modeler]

Really guys. Obama is our president and HE WILL protect us from all difficulties.

Well, seems we've gotten pretty far off topic....

 

[erudne]

I have held the job of janitor, scrubbed out toilets.
Picked snot off toilet stall walls
Seen friends murdered because they were targeted as old and weak.
Obama wants PPL like me to die so that he can murder the sheep, free of the Sheep Dogs
But I ain't dead
and I ain't weak
yet

 

[Salerno360]

Yes, a rifle.

That is the point right there The best rifle is the rifle that you're going to use. It's like when people ask what's the best conceal carry pistol. Answers the one that you got on you. It's the gun that you instantly grab when you hear a bump in the night. What feels comfortable to you and what you're going to grab without even thinking about it.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Yep, new or used (by you or someone else) so long as you know it works 100% when clean.

If it's up to the task of getting the rounds on target at the ranges you expect for engagement, punching through vehicle doors and windshields, you're in the game.

I'd prefer a rifle I've broken in a bit and have spare parts for, if possible. Bonus if you have penetrator/AP and tracer and frangible ammo for it.

More bonus if it's a common caliber and likely to be the same your neighbor used before (s)he got hit.

A rifle is such a more superior weapon over a pistol with the exception of weight and concealment, it's in a whole other league, ballpark, even.

 

[AMProducts]

I've gone AR with my stuff... main reasons:

.223 is a common commercial caliber in this country and is relatively inexpensive. At the same time match, and hunting ammo and bullets are also very common and would cost much less and have a higher performance envelope than any of the imports. Having ammo is right up there in importance with having a gun. Having lots of ammo that's designed to kill is right behind that. FMJ, "Penetrator" (M855) or cheap russian hollow points is a poor substitute for even having SMK's, better is to have ballistic tip, e-tip, solids, TSX or any of the other up-market hunting bullets that are specifically designed for clean efficient kills in the hunting grounds.

.223 is also lighter in weight, 1000rds weigh about 28lbs so if you had to make a movement you could punish yourself and carry 2 cans of it for a weight of about 65lbs (don't forget the weight of the can). The 7.62x39 is another 30% heavier.

Being .22 cal bore, I have a drop in-kit that allows me to use .22LR ammo, 500 rounds is what 4lbs?

As far as old vs new. Personally, while some very good guns are available surplus I consider nearly all of these as playing second fiddle to a new gun you take out to the range and test. Compared even to 20 years ago, we have better steels, more advanced machining processes and we can make a gun that's orders of magnitude better than just a decade ago.

 

[eldbillbo]

Joe bob biden says all you need is a shotgun

 

[Doc In UPlace]

AM has some good points;

I like to mix my ammo up in some magazines, alternating M855 with a frangible and a hollow-point TAP, going on like that for five cycles then finishing with five rounds of tracer at the end, in a 20-rounder.
Every three rounds is gonna have something for everybody, so to speak. Tracers remind you it's reloading time.

There are some mags that are all semi-jacket frangible, which are awful against soft targets, with low-ricochet, and some mags that are alternating soft-point with 855 penetrator.

Mark 'em with a sharpie and blue 3M tape. Load to suit.

 

[AMProducts]

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend M855 at all... it's penetration is poor, it's muzzle velocity is poor, and unless you're trying to rattle on a target at 800 yards with full auto, it's generally not what you want. Given the fact that I can't get any M995, I'm going to count on hitting soft tissue, or the TSX bullets acting as solids and giving me better penetration. 5.56 zips right through every soft armor I've seen, and with hard armor, you're not going to start penetrating until you're at 300WM+.

Tracer ammo, Incendiary, these certainly have a limited place, either for fire direction or starting fires.

As far as frangible ammo goes, beware stuff like the sinterfire bullets... they perform worse than ball ammo on soft targets. Barnes Varmint grenade and other jacketed bullets typically don't have this drawback.

 

[IronMonster]

There is some good stuff in the post.

I really think what it comes down to is what ever you will shoot. Buying a used or new gun and a pile of ammo and throwing it in a corner and waiting for the end of the world is really not a very good plan. (I am not saying it was THE plan, just saying as a plan it sucks)

So if you have plenty of disposable income buy several new rifles that all match and some spares for them and a metric-butload of ammo and then shoot them all hard, fast and repeatedly.

If you are not overflowing with duckets buy a second hand beater and at least a few hundred rounds to put up. Buy a box or two of ammo every payday and shoot it up.

That would be my advice to a first time survivalist type rifle buyer.

I guarantee that when we get to TEOTWAWKI the guy you are shooting at is not going to have an opinion about if your rifle is shiny or crusty, new or used. What that guy will care about is how good you are with it.

 

[Riot]

I've gone AR with my stuff... main reasons:

.223 is a common commercial caliber in this country and is relatively inexpensive. At the same time match, and hunting ammo and bullets are also very common and would cost much less and have a higher performance envelope than any of the imports. Having ammo is right up there in importance with having a gun. Having lots of ammo that's designed to kill is right behind that. FMJ, "Penetrator" (M855) or cheap russian hollow points is a poor substitute for even having SMK's, better is to have ballistic tip, e-tip, solids, TSX or any of the other up-market hunting bullets that are specifically designed for clean efficient kills in the hunting grounds.

.223 is also lighter in weight, 1000rds weigh about 28lbs so if you had to make a movement you could punish yourself and carry 2 cans of it for a weight of about 65lbs (don't forget the weight of the can). The 7.62x39 is another 30% heavier.

Being .22 cal bore, I have a drop in-kit that allows me to use .22LR ammo, 500 rounds is what 4lbs?

As far as old vs new. Personally, while some very good guns are available surplus I consider nearly all of these as playing second fiddle to a new gun you take out to the range and test. Compared even to 20 years ago, we have better steels, more advanced machining processes and we can make a gun that's orders of magnitude better than just a decade ago.

^This is probably the best reason not just to use an AR, but just HAVE and AR...almost every gun enthusiast has an AR variant...even if it's a Mini-14...they have a .223 rifle and .223.

 

[Joe13]

I'm getting there...

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Well as far as the ammo issue goes, I've penetrated 3/8" mild steel with M855 through my 6920 carbine, which isn't anything to sneeze at, and specifically the Winchester 5.56 jacketed frangibles have created awful wounds on actual soft targets in Afghanistan/Iraq delivered via Triple Canopy and Blackwater contractors.

This is ammo that would be illegal to use by the military; so there's not a lot of (or actually, any) press about it.

So just based on my own observations and experience and those who have actually shot people with it, whom I know and believe, there it is, FWIW and YMMV.

As to

beware stuff like the sinterfire bullets... they perform worse than ball ammo on soft targets

I don't know where this info comes from, first hand or 'read it someplace'. But it contradicts what my colleagues have seen first hand in the sandbox. Based on that, I think it's a good choice for urban CQB.

Obviously no single round does it all, so that's why I load a rotating variety in some mags.

The issue I would have expected to have been raised was varying POI's due to weight and ballistic variations.

So how 'bout those Seahawks!

 

[AMProducts]

Here's an interesting take on the issue, and a good review by Greg Ellifritz of the E-Book The Family Survival Gun from Plan B Writers' Alliance. Their choice - a Mossberg 500. Not sure I agree, but the e-book is cheap so see for yourselves:
<broken link removed>

I've read a number of books that come to similar conclusions and all get there via a variety of means and typically it comes down to the "one gun fallacy". While I tend to agree to an extent the utility of the shotgun the firepower is limited (6-9 shots on a full tube), range limited to a few hundred yards even with slugs, the ammo is very heavy (94lbs/K). The plus side: you can take every kind of game from fieldmice to elephant with it, your short-range firepower is extremely high (<100 yards I want a shotgun), the utility value of shooting flares, line throwing and the like are very high. The shotgun really represents the opposite side of the spectrum from the sniper rifle. (which is nearly useless <100 yards) While if you can cram a shotgun into your bag, huge plus (I have a pistol grip 500 in my ruck) if it adds too much weight get something else.

Given the "choose two" triad that always comes up (in this case firepower, weight and cost) I'm always going to choose firepower and weight over cost. For the most part, I'm only buying once and I generally subscribe to the buy once cry once school.

I guarantee that when we get to TEOTWAWKI the guy you are shooting at is not going to have an opinion about if your rifle is shiny or crusty, new or used. What that guy will care about is how good you are with it.

While this is the best, and often most basic advice:

Rule #1: Have a gun
Rule #2: Have ammo for said gun
Rule #3: Have lots of ammo for said gun
Rule #4: Be proficient at using said gun

You can mix these around any way you want to, however if you remove one of them survival rate is not helped at all. Generally, much survivalism and prepping comes down to firearms, however it bears repeating that firearms are generalized tools, they put food in your belly as much as they protect your backside. These are major reasons why I want very high versatility.

 

[AMProducts]

Well as far as the ammo issue goes, I've penetrated 3/8" mild steel with M855 through my 6920 carbine, which isn't anything to sneeze at, and specifically the Winchester 5.56 jacketed frangibles have created awful wounds on actual soft targets in Afghanistan/Iraq delivered via Triple Canopy and Blackwater contractors.

This is ammo that would be illegal to use by the military; so there's not a lot of (or actually, any) press about it.

So just based on my own observations and experience and those who have actually shot people with it, whom I know and believe, there it is, FWIW and YMMV.

As to I don't know where this info comes from, first hand or 'read it someplace'. But it contradicts what my colleagues have seen first hand in the sandbox. Based on that, I think it's a good choice for urban CQB.

Obviously no single round does it all, so that's why I load a rotating variety in some mags.

The issue I would have expected to have been raised was varying POI's due to weight and ballistic variations.

So how 'bout those Seahawks!

3/8" mild steel is a pretty low threshold, I'm curious how M193 did against the same plate. I've shot plenty against steel (usually 1/2"+) and .223 is very damaging to it. However, once you step up to AR-500 which many people are using for body armor these days, that's the real test of whether it's AP or not. From what I've seen AR-500 laughs off most 5.56 until you step up to M995.

I know the bullets you mean... I've seen them, and have a box of 20. I've heard mixed reports on them, the main one I hear is the tips break off and jam guns. Mostly I use the Barnes MPG for this purpose, similar idea except it's a hollowpoint frangible core. I regularly use them on coyotes and game up to wild pig size, while the wounds are traumatic, they are not as deep as I would like on pig (granted, built much more heavy than people). Both of these bullets are radically different than the Sinterfire frangible's which I recommend staying away from for defense. Training fine, defense no.

As far as most 5.56 goes, until you step up from 52 to 77gr the POI shift is quite minimal. I know from personal experience that the 5.56 out of a 14.5" barrel with open sights will easily hit a man sized target out to 500 yards. with a 77gr and a 20" you can push that to about 800 with a scope. But that's about it.

 

[revjen45]

One thing going for the M-N (or other military rifle) is that an entity with more $ than any of us did the beta testing. None of us is likely to see the hardships of the Battle of Stalingrad, but thanks to Herr Schicklgruber the Soviets did, and the M-N came through. As has been mentioned the gun is not all you will need, and you can get an M-N with ammo for less than you would spend on a shiny new something else. Ideally, one would have more than one gun.

 

[Johnnyc1]

My SKS hasn't hardly been fired before me if it even was. I expect it to last my lifetime and several generations past me.

That being said, I'm not sure I would choose it over an AK for combat, given magazine reliability if I had a choice.

I like AR's but I'd rather have the punch of a 7.62x39 for urban combat then .223.

I think the 7.62X39 in soft point is the round to stock up on if you have an AK47 or SKS. Try reading" Boston's Gun Bible" for a lot of gun reviews & other important stuff then make up your own mind about what you want.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Have to agree, the Mosin is, for the money probably the best value available for a serious caliber rifle.

And the ammo is cheap. And it hits hard, lots of good penetration.

Yavas lublu, Tavarich!