Reality Regarding Caliber "Stopping Power"

[OldBroad44]

I understand that, and by panic I mean feel emotions not normally associated with waking up to no intruders in my home. There is ALWAYS emotion inherent in finding the unexpected, it's how we handle it as individuals that makes us our own first weapon of defense of our homes. So maybe panic was too strong of a word.
I've woken up to people being in my house that didn't belong there, but they weren't necessarily intruders, simply drunk friends and there was surprise at their presence but not panic.

I agree totally that there are emotional and adrenaline effects in emergencies. For me, time seems to slow down, and I seem to think and move faster. And am also stronger. After the first time I had to point a gun at someone--a SA semi-auto--I decided I wanted the nice long DA pull of a DA revolver in a self defense gun. I didnt fire the gun unintentionally (or at all); but I didnt feel entirely sure about being able to avoid doing so in that adrenalized state, once I experienced it. In a nonemergency, its easy to tell how much pressure Im exerting on that light SA trigger. In an emergency it isnt. Not for me. So that fact informs my preferences for guns that might need to be used in emergencies.

A much heavier trigger would take care of the issue but would ruin my accuracy and ability to use the gun as a woods gun or for hunting or recreation. So I like fine revolvers with light crisp SA triggers and smooth DA triggers. My self-defense drills are all DA. But I still have a lovely light SA trigger for recreation or hunting. If I ever do add a self-defense gun that's a semi-auto, its going to be something that is DA/SA for self defense, and with a hammer that can be cocked for SA recreation, pest control, or hunting.

The main reason I might be inclined to add a semi-auto to my otherwise revolver repertoir, by the way, is only partly about capacity; its mostly about suppressors. You cant suppress a revolver. It might be nice to have a suppressed gun these days, even for mundane stuff like garden pest control. (Have been drooling a bit over the urban grey suppressor ready CZ P07.)

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

 

[Xaevian]

The anecdote that kicked this off seems kinda suspicious. I mean, the officers involved had time to empty one gun, holster it, retrieve a backup piece, likely from an ankle holster, empty that, and a 2nd officer then emptied another. Was the aggressor charging them from 100 yds away to allow all that time?

 

[bbbass]

Many years ago police officers all over the country were carrying .38 Special revolvers. Before everyone went to semi-autos there was a mass stampede to the .357 magnum for a very good reason. The .38 sp. just was not getting the job done. I can't imagine why ANYBODY would chose such an underpowered gun in the age of PCP, methamphetamine, and heroine. I guess that anybody who is an EXCELLENT shot, and who can stay super cool in a high-stress situation, could effectively defend himself with a .38 Special. I'm not going to chance it myself.

I'd carry .38Spec +P no problem. I'm moving my wife to .22lr (she's 77yrs old) and when I can no longer handle 9mm, I will move yet another notch down myself. It's either that or rely on harsh language and giving the stink eye.

Dear BB,

I hear you when you talk about arthritis and more. (Old accident issues here for me too.)

That is why I only shoot my main rifle and perhaps a couple of others here (22lr) now. I don't want to cause further damage to my old bones and more nerve damage. Plus I still have some range of motion issues and use a cane on and off.

When I come home now after shooting my 22lr rifle - it is not as bad for me even on a 'bad day' since I only shoot rifles and no handguns in any size, caliber and weight. I ACCEPT THE FACT that I have to do what works for ME.

I may get another CZ bolt action rifle like what I have now only in 22wmr for my birthday too. I LOVE that caliber for a rifle, I previously owned a sweet lever action in 22wmr, and it would not be shot as much as my 22lr one. I did have a cylinder for my Ruger 22lr/22wmr s/a revolvers for 22wmr too. But I rarely shot it in a handgun.

This bolt action rifle is easier for me to handle, load and unload and it is NOT as heavy as some of my former, sweet, and beautiful lever action rifles that I adored. Walnut/blued and walnut/brass lever action rifles.

Maybe down the road, you might want to consider or have to change some of your nice firearms around so you do not damage your hands and wrists any more.

My MT husband has done this with many of his firearms as we have discussed. But it was due to MAJOR caliber consolidation, making reloading easier for him and massive downsizing in ALL firearms BEFORE and a bit after his retirement. He told me that some of his old physical issues may make him change some more of his firearms around too.

Take care and give your wife my best wishes too.

Blessings sent your way.

Sincerely,

Cate

Hi Cate, thank you for the kind words!

I've always been intrigued with the 22WMR. One of my elk hunting buddies carried one into the woods as a sidearm on his belt. It sure boomed when he shot it. I'd love to have both a revolver and a rifle chambered for it. Another cartridge that peaks my interest is the .17HMR... I have a relative that owns a rifle in .17 and loves it. He shoots chucks and whatever else. Seems like it would be fun. Oh, and .22TCM too, but the loads are too expensive...

Stay well,

bb

 

[Xaevian]

Just goes to show never underestimate a battle axe as a backup weapon.

 

[OldBroad44]

Many years ago police officers all over the country were carrying .38 Special revolvers. Before everyone went to semi-autos there was a mass stampede to the .357 magnum for a very good reason. The .38 sp. just was not getting the job done. I can't imagine why ANYBODY would chose such an underpowered gun in the age of PCP, methamphetamine, and heroine. I guess that anybody who is an EXCELLENT shot, and who can stay super cool in a high-stress situation, could effectively defend himself with a .38 Special. I'm not going to chance it myself.

If the .38 sp is so inadequate, so is the 9mm. The .38 special and 9 mm are the same diameter. They have pretty much the same range of power of loads in standard, +P, and +P+ offerings. Both these days have excellent expanding bullets if thats your need. The .38sp has better nonexpanding designs, as semiauto flat nosed bullets are not all that flat nosed. The meplats are smaller and the shoulders are rounded, necessary so they will feed in a semi-auto, but making them more like round nosed bullets, which are notorious for just passing through and doing little damage. And only a revolver allows a full wadcutter, which is actually an excellent self defense load that doesnt depend on bullet expansion.

LE shifted to .357 when it came along not because .38sp was inadequate but because .357mag was better, and you could still shoot .38 out of the same guns. And the the guns weighed and costed almost the same. And .357 is clearly more powerful than .38sp. There was not really any reason to even manufacture .38 sp (only) guns any more in duty sized revolvers once .357 came along. And these days, generally nobody does. .38 sp only guns are generally limited to models much smaller or lighter than duty size guns.

As for the .38 not getting the job done--actually, no handgun caliber is a reliable stopper unless the bullet goes into the brain or spine. This and similar threads giving examples of people or bears hit multiple times and continuing to fight are illustrative.

But back in the era when all LE carried .38 revolvers, there were a lot of reasons why handgun bullets often failed to stop bad-guy humans beyond the caliber. Lots of the time people were shooting ball ammo or its equivalent--jhp bullets that didnt expand from carry-length barrels. Most jhp ammo didnt expand when shot from barrels of just 4 inches. In addition, people were much more impressed by the supposed stopping power of handgun bullets, which basically dont have any. They shot once or twice and stopped. The double tap was initially the idea that you should shoot twice quickly instead of once before stopping and seeing whether the bad guy fell over or gave up. Now, LE empties their 15 or more bullets into the bad guy before stopping. That improves their odds significantly.

 

[Alexx1401]

My husband is awake now and he told me that Smith and Wesson did make a 45Long Colt d/a revolver.

It is a Model 25 and it is very pretty!

They show it on their website and there are other links for it on internet searches.

Model 25 - S&W Classics 6 1/2" Blue | Smith & Wesson

Cate

For a rather short time a few makers were offering some D/A wheel guns in the .45 Colt that were made for defense. None seemed to ever really catch on and you rarely see them now. Even in the larger wheel guns they I think still offer it but .44 mag being so much more popular it's again something rarely seen.

 

[Alexx1401]

But back in the era when all LE carried .38 revolvers, there were a lot of reasons why handgun bullets often failed to stop bad-guy humans beyond the caliber. Lots of the time people were shooting ball ammo or its equivalent--

I remember when the Seattle PD wanted to go to a HP bullet for their .38's. They were carrying the old 158gr LRN. People took the streets waving signs, saying Cops did not need to be killers. The people who were waving those signs are no doubt the parents who give us the ANTIFA morons now.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Show #174 - Medical Examiner Dr. Charles Siebert on Gunshot Wounds and Autopsy Lessons Learned

html5-player.libsyn.com/embed/episode/id/8238884/height/400/theme/custom/thumbnail/yes/direction/backward/render-playlist/no/custom-color/87A93A/

SKIP to the 36:30 time index mark to get right to the interview

 

[DizzyJ]

For those advising a head shot with a pistol in a dynamic situation, how many have actually done so in real life?

 

[OldBroad44]

For those advising a head shot with a pistol in a dynamic situation, how many have actually done so in real life?

I dont advise anybody else. I merely state what I do as my self defense practice pattern. Others make their own choices. No I have never shot someone in the head. Nor in their bubblegum nor any other part of their body either.

My practice drills are mostly first one or two shots to the head, the rest to the body. My reasoning is that head shots are harder to make but MUCH more reliable stoppers than body shots. So including both is a compromise. And these days some bad guys might wear body armor, meaning the body shots are useless. And these days, someone on drugs might not be stopped by a body shot. I figure the first couple of shots will be the easiest ones to make as head shots, since the bad guy is further away. (Say 10 or 15 feet away.) Assuming the BG is charging he's going to be almost on top of me by the third shot, and the angles etc make it harder to do a head shot, and I may need to be fending off with one hand. Also, if BG has a gun, and my first shots are to the body I'm almost certainly going to get shot too. Only a head shot would incapacitate BG fast enough to prevent getting shot myself. Everybody has to consider these kinds of factors and make their own choices about practice routines.

 

[Member 52301]

I was always told and read that 9mm and 38Special were close but I did not have the statistics in front of me. I was not able to rattle it off aka write it down.

So it never made sense to me when some people said that 38Special was not good but the 9mm was!

And I loved and used the 9mm too. My VERY first gun was in a 9mm in the late 90's. Glock. Great gun in my opinion!

Cate

 

[coop44]

Always a fan of the 38 special, accurate in the right revolver.
44 special too.
The obsession with power and ballistics is no more than an academic exercise.
Remember the civil war? Woefully inferior weapons shooting round balls left battlefields full of corpses.
People haven't gotten any tougher. It is always easy to point out the statistical anomaly and say a particular caliber doesn't work.I
Truth is, no caliber is 100% effective 100% of the time.

No caliber will overcome a lack of training or resolve.

 

[Alexx1401]

I was always told and read that 9mm and 38Special were close but I did not have the statistics in front of me. I was not able to rattle it off aka write it down.

So it never made sense to me when some people said that 38Special was not good but the 9mm was!

And I loved and used the 9mm too. My VERY first gun was in a 9mm in the late 90's. Glock. Great gun in my opinion!

Cate

If you look at the actual tables the 9 beats the .38 quite a bit IF you compare the same slugs. When the 9mm first started to become "common" in shootings a hell of a lot of the stats were for the standard ball ammo. Big advantage to 9 is of course capacity. I for a lot of years used a 5 shot 38 as a coat pocket gun. When Last Daughter left for her own digs my last one went with her. When I went to replace that one was talked into trying a new 11 shot auto. Loved it. Now days there are lots of them around that will offer the person who wants to carry much more firepower in the same size package. Not much fun to shoot with full loads but they are nice to have 11 rounds instead of 5

 

[OldBroad44]

Comparing the same size slugs in two different calibers is often done, but isnt the useful comparison. This biases toward the caliber with the smaller slugs. And bigger calibers are more effective partly because of their bigger slugs. And part of why .38 sp is such a great round is its capacity for a big bullet as well as plenty of powder. The best comparison is the best of one caliber vs the best of the other for whatever intended purpose.

Also, you need to compare numbers for barrels of the same size, not factory numbers with no barrel lengths given. For example, the Buffalo Bore 9mm +P Outdoorsman, their best load for self defense against bears, shoots a 147 gr. fn hc bullet out of a 4 inch barrel at 1089 fps, for 387 ft. lbs. Their best equivalent load for .38 sp +P is the .38 sp +P Outdoorsman, which shoots a 158gr hc Keith bullet from a 4 inch barrel at about 1150 fps, giving 464 ft lbs. (ft lb calculations mine).

Both bullets have flat noses, but the revolver bullet has a bigger flat nose and sharper corners, undoubtedly better for deep straight penetration, even not counting the greater power behind it.

 

[Alexx1401]

Comparing the same size slugs in two different calibers is often done, but isnt the useful comparison. it.

This is a small example of what I am talking about. For those who love the old 38 nothing wrong with it but it's not close to the 9. Not to mention using either of these on a Bear? Not for me. Unless of course it was all I had. I was talking about Police, so few of them were shooting Bear

Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.

38 Special LRN 158 200 755

38 Special +P FMJ 158 253 850

38 Special +P JHP 125 248 9

Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.

9mm FMJ 124 351 1126

9mm JHP 117 401 1250

9mm FMJ 115 399 1250

Blazer Ammunition Ballistics

Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.

9mm JHP 115 335 1145

9mm JHP 124 327 1090

9mm JHP 147 295 950

 

[OldBroad44]

No barrel lengths given. None of the numbers mean anything without barrel lengths.

Didnt say there's nothing wrong with .38sp. Just saying that trashing .38 sp whilst worshiping 9 mm doesnt make sense, since they are so similar. Both are superceeded by other calibers. I consider both pretty wimpy, for basically all purposes. But for ordinary citizens, what we carry is a compromise between ease of carrying and what we would prefer to have if something required actually using the gun for self defense. And also for some the compromise involves what recoil they can handle in smaller guns or with old arthritic hands. .38sp and 9 mm are great compromise calibers.

 

[Member 52301]

My MT husband is not home from his morning walk yet. Before he left, he rattled off a bunch of things that have been mentioned here.

I can't repeat it verbatim.

Plus he can rattle off different loads, bullets, powders, primers, brand names and so forth. I can't do that but I do UNDERSTAND what he is talking about in some of those things even if I am not a reloader. He has a pretty good memory but still checks loading data even though he has reloaded since the early 70's.

Barrel lengths - that does make a BIG difference too. I agree with OB 44 x 1,000!

I could tell the difference with that even as a NEWBIE in my late 40's when I bought and shot different handguns in various calibers, barrel lengths, frames and designs in my first year of shooting. I could tell more in my second and third years too.

I could tell the difference in my shooting AFTER a year or so passed after I was out of the heavy arm/hand plaster cast on HOW I could PICK UP, hold and grip any item not just a handgun even with nerve damage in my late 40's. Before my arthritis got worse.

Thanks and take care.

Cate

 

[OldBroad44]

I was always told and read that 9mm and 38Special were close but I did not have the statistics in front of me. I was not able to rattle it off aka write it down.

So it never made sense to me when some people said that 38Special was not good but the 9mm was!

And I loved and used the 9mm too. My VERY first gun was in a 9mm in the late 90's. Glock. Great gun in my opinion!

Cate

One factor may be that when people look critically at the best available for each caliber for each purpose, they see calibers that are pretty similar. But when they look uncritically at lists of over the-counter-ammo, the .38sp includes, in addition to serious loads, a huge number of loads deliberately downloaded all the way to half or even a third of full power loads for recreational plinking or training. This stuff shoots almost like .22s in full size guns and is very popular. But you just can't download semi-auto loads that much without messing up their ability to cycle the action.

 

[bbbass]

But you just can't download semi-auto loads that much without messing up their ability to cycle the action.

I agree with this generally. However, I downloaded .45ACP to 600fps and had it cycle by changing out the recoil spring from stock (is it 16lb or 18lb?) to 11lbs. There is even a 9lb spring available but I've found that to be too snappy with the reduced loads for which I was able to find reloading data. This was with 230gr boolitts, 185gr may be able to be reduced even more? IDK, I never found any reduced loading data for 185gr .45ACP.