Reality Regarding Caliber "Stopping Power"

[PsychoDan]

And here I thought Superman only responded to Kryptonite!

 

[Dan Adams]

You mentioned 45Long Colt (NOT 45acp.) in your post. So one partner was carrying a single action revolver? Interesting.

I will have to listen to this. Thank you.

I am NOT knocking either caliber and I used to own, carry and shoot a SWEET Ruger Blackhawk in 45Long Colt. I no longer own, shoot and carry handguns due to my arthritis and old accident issues but I sure did love my handguns! I miss handgun shooting too.

I personally Never owned a 45acp pistol but my MT husband owns a couple of 45acp pistols now and he has owned a LOT in the '45 caliber' - past tense.

I am glad that the 44Magnum handgun finally did the job.

Interesting that the bad guy kept on going and that it took ALL of that bullet power to STOP THE ATTACK. Interesting that he LIVED that long too!

Maybe they should have shot the bad guy in the throat or in the head after the first two or three shots did NOT bring him down. In other words, don't continue to repeat what does not work when you are trying to stop a direct threat on your life, your partner or your back up partners.

Cate
Added more.

My notes could be, and probably are, wrong about the .45 LC cartridge. I seriously doubt a Chicago cop, even 20-30 years ago, would carry a single-action!

All of you who think the cops should have targeted different areas of the body (head, neck, etc.), need to consider the situation: in a large city, lots of people around, and the whole thing goes down in about 30 seconds or less. Aim at an attacker's head (which is probably moving erratically) and miss, who else might you kill? My takeaway was that the knee shot was what finally disabled the attacker long enough for the cops to cuff him.

By the way, a friend sent me this podcast after we got to talking about the advice we get from different self-defense instructors. I "failed" the Front Sight test question about whether you should "keep shooting until the threat is stopped." I answered, "Yes." The "correct" reply would have been to double-tap center mass...and wait to see if a head shot would be necessary. Otherwise you could be charged with use of excessive force. Well, that was how I decided NOT to take the Front Sight training course.

 

[koolminx]

Point of disablement. It's all about hitting where you aim, and not three of four centimeters to the left or right, a human can have 10++ holes in it's body before blood loss incapacitates the body, millimeters from the heart will not kill a person.....

SHRED the HEAD, or Strafe the Chest, then disable the legs... There's no true way to know what will work in a panic situation, and believe me, we ALL panic when an intruder is in our home.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I "failed" the Front Sight test question about whether you should "keep shooting until the threat is stopped." I answered, "Yes." The "correct" reply would have been to double-tap center mass...and wait to see if a head shot would be necessary. Otherwise you could be charged with use of excessive force. Well, that was how I decided NOT to take the Front Sight training course.

My oh my...but good for you for not buying that information.

I am disappointed in "theory" based training.

Double tap...then wait and see. Again someone describing the Loch Ness Monster...something no one has ever seen before in real life.

 

[dcfranzen]

he "correct" reply would have been to double-tap center mass...and wait to see if a head shot would be necessary. Otherwise you could be charged with use of excessive force. Well, that was how I decided NOT to take the Front Sight training course.

A smart choice. This sounds like something politicians with badges and the agency lead attorney come up to avoid a lawsuit. For me, Rule #1 - Go home at the end of the shift. Rule #2 - Your partner goes home at the end of the shift. Rule #3 - See Rule #1.

Attacks on police happen at much closer distances than most people think or cops train. There is a lot of data collected on cop killings and reports issued by several agencies periodically. The data is consistent, most cops are killed at a distance of 5 to 10 feet. Once you get out to 7 yards - where most cop training begins - you are in a statistical zone regarding your chances of even getting into an encounter. There is no reason to believe that citizens are going to be involved in attacks at greater distances.

That said, considering the close distances and suddenness of attacks, there is precious little time to worry about the welfare of others. Folks who may be frozen with indecision or have their awareness focused on their phones rather than their surroundings when you are being attacked and operating on Rule #1.

There is hardly time to draw your gun much less sighting the weapon. What you end up according to Jeff Cooper is a "flash sight picture", meaning you see a fuzzy image before you. A good reason for point of aim, weapon retention, and close quarters drill training. The only shot you may have is the attacker's instep, ankle, or knee because you are using your other hand and arm to block punches or weapon strikes

Bad advice from Front Sight IMO.

 

[turq]

I have a hard time believing that if I hit an attacker "center mass" with a 10mm 135gr Nosler at 1600+FPS twice, that he wouldn't be set back AND slowed down. Next would be an aimed shot.
????

 

[pharmseller]

I have a hard time believing that if I hit an attacker "center mass" with a 10mm 135gr Nosler at 1600+FPS twice, that he wouldn't be set back AND slowed down. Next would be an aimed shot.
????

Have you ever shot a deer with a 180 grain Core-Lokt from an -06 at 2700 fps and had him run off? I have.

In the grand scheme of things handguns are wimpy. Stories abound of people getting shot multiple times center mass only to keep going.




P

 

[RedRover]

I have a hard time believing that if I hit an attacker "center mass" with a 10mm 135gr Nosler at 1600+FPS twice, that he wouldn't be set back AND slowed down. Next would be an aimed shot.
????

Crazy what adrenaline can do. It can mask pain to the point that a person might not immediately realize that they've been shot.

CNS hits aside, the majority of "stopping from gunshots" happens when enough blood loss occurs to induce hypovolemic(hemorrhagic) shock, leading to an eventual loss of consciousness. That transition can take anywhere from several seconds to minutes, or even hours/days -- depending on the severity of the damage, and the accompanying blood loss.

So yes, those center-mass hits from a 10mm may prove to eventually lead to a loss of consciousness(and even fatal w/out immediate medical attention), but absent them yawing around in the 'boiler room' and immediately disrupting the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain...a determined attacker can still have plenty of time to get their attack on. Immediately below major arteries, an average person's heart is roughly the size of an orange to a grapefruit. The spine is a much narrower target. Lung shots may often be effective in stopping the fight, but only because the attacker decides to, not because they must.

Use of 'deadly force' ought to never be confused with merely placating a deadly threat. Yes, in the eyes of the law, one ought naught 'shoot to kill' so-to-speak, however, 'stopping the threat' usually requires one to keep shooting until the threat is 'down', and clearly unable to pose any further threat.

Lots of people stay in the fight after "center mass" hits, and some even win it. Many a gun battle has also concluded with both shooters expiring after delivering and then receiving fire center mass. The 'one shot drop' is a myth perpetuated by Hollywood. The 'double tap' perpetuated by so-called SD gurus. Shoot until the target changes shape or catches fire.

 

[zenbreath]

Too much training for torso hits and not enough for the head. Mess up the brain and it lights off.

Yes...and No.

You've heard "Aways cuff a corpse."?

The story, (as I was told), came from a Highway patrol officer who was attacked by a drunk biker. Things went south and the officer drew his weapon and shot him in the head.

Hole in the front. Blood out the back. Biker goes down.

The officer was filling out paperwork, waiting for backup, EMS, supervisor...when he is attacked by the biker.

When they got the biker to the hospital, they discovered that the bullet never penetrated the skull. It traveled between the skin and the skull and knocked the biker unconscious.

 

[Member 52301]

I don't generally go to the link. And I rarely watch the vids. It just takes up time and effort.



That's why I don't need to click... it works almost every time!!!



Shock... I doubt after taking a few hits that a man would be feeling anything at all, anywhere. It also seems that pain is a very poor motivator in most incidents. Repeated blows with an ASP often do no good at all. Same thing happens with bullets... if one cannot stop the blood flow to the brain, or damage the brain's motor control center, one would need to rely on bone breaking shots.... not gonna happen with light caliber but 9mm is all I generally shoot anymore due to arthritis. In a fight I could handle a larger caliber, but I carry what I practice with and even 100rds of 9mm has me looking for the pain meds after a range run.







bb

Dear BB,

I hear you when you talk about arthritis and more. (Old accident issues here for me too.)

That is why I only shoot my main rifle and perhaps a couple of others here (22lr) now. I don't want to cause further damage to my old bones and more nerve damage. Plus I still have some range of motion issues and use a cane on and off.

When I come home now after shooting my 22lr rifle - it is not as bad for me even on a 'bad day' since I only shoot rifles and no handguns in any size, caliber and weight. I ACCEPT THE FACT that I have to do what works for ME.

I may get another CZ bolt action rifle like what I have now only in 22wmr for my birthday too. I LOVE that caliber for a rifle, I previously owned a sweet lever action in 22wmr, and it would not be shot as much as my 22lr one. I did have a cylinder for my Ruger 22lr/22wmr s/a revolvers for 22wmr too. But I rarely shot it in a handgun.

This bolt action rifle is easier for me to handle, load and unload and it is NOT as heavy as some of my former, sweet, and beautiful lever action rifles that I adored. Walnut/blued and walnut/brass lever action rifles.

Maybe down the road, you might want to consider or have to change some of your nice firearms around so you do not damage your hands and wrists any more.

My MT husband has done this with many of his firearms as we have discussed. But it was due to MAJOR caliber consolidation, making reloading easier for him and massive downsizing in ALL firearms BEFORE and a bit after his retirement. He told me that some of his old physical issues may make him change some more of his firearms around too.

Take care and give your wife my best wishes too.

Blessings sent your way.

Sincerely,

Cate

 

[Member 52301]

My notes could be, and probably are, wrong about the .45 LC cartridge. I seriously doubt a Chicago cop, even 20-30 years ago, would carry a single-action!

All of you who think the cops should have targeted different areas of the body (head, neck, etc.), need to consider the situation: in a large city, lots of people around, and the whole thing goes down in about 30 seconds or less. Aim at an attacker's head (which is probably moving erratically) and miss, who else might you kill? My takeaway was that the knee shot was what finally disabled the attacker long enough for the cops to cuff him.

By the way, a friend sent me this podcast after we got to talking about the advice we get from different self-defense instructors. I "failed" the Front Sight test question about whether you should "keep shooting until the threat is stopped." I answered, "Yes." The "correct" reply would have been to double-tap center mass...and wait to see if a head shot would be necessary. Otherwise you could be charged with use of excessive force. Well, that was how I decided NOT to take the Front Sight training course.

~~~

Hello,

From my POST 49 here:

Quote:

"From the You Tube interview that the one gentleman (Nick B.) put a LINK to on here:

45Long Colt = a Smith revolver.

It is a good interview.

Thanks again!

Cate"

~~~

I listened to the above interview from Nick B.'s LINK and the policeman mentions 45 LONG COLT from a Smith Revolver. I listened to his LINK twice and I will listen to what you posted too.

I think that S&W used to make some d/a revolvers in 45Long Colt but I never had one like that.

I only owned one Ruger (45Long Colt) s/a revolver in a Blackhawk. Meaning I only owned one 45Long Colt handgun in my entire life. I am not talking about lever action rifles now in that caliber of 45Long Colt.

I owned, shot and carried 2 Ruger Blackhawks in 357Magnum too.

I did own SEVERAL sweet Smith and Wesson d/a revolvers and 2 S&W semi automatic pistols circa the late 90's though.

Thanks for your original post. I enjoyed it!

Cate

 

[Certaindeaf]

Have you ever shot a deer with a 180 grain Core-Lokt from an -06 at 2700 fps and had him run off? I have.

In the grand scheme of things handguns are wimpy. Stories abound of people getting shot multiple times center mass only to keep going.




P

Yep. Remember the Thompson Lagard military study about 100 years ago.? Where they deemed you needed to make a 3" hole through the chest or hit a femur, pelvis, spine or nog to make a fella really have an owie right now.

 

[Member 52301]

Many years ago police officers all over the country were carrying .38 Special revolvers. Before everyone went to semi-autos there was a mass stampede to the .357 magnum for a very good reason. The .38 sp. just was not getting the job done. I can't imagine why ANYBODY would chose such an underpowered gun in the age of PCP, methamphetamine, and heroine. I guess that anybody who is an EXCELLENT shot, and who can stay super cool in a high-stress situation, could effectively defend himself with a .38 Special. I'm not going to chance it myself.

Hello,

I am not a peace officer.

I know that MANY if not all (?) police departments went to semi automatic pistols and they have extra loaded magazines at the ready. (Added more here.)

I have formerly owned, carried and shot several s/a and d/a revolvers using 38Special, Plus P and 357 Magnum.

Brands = my former Ruger s/a revolvers and my former Smith and Wesson d/a revolvers.

I used many pistol caliber lever action rifles in those calibers too. But that is another matter.

I used my late husband's famous, pretty Dan Wesson d/a revolver (357Magnum.) for my 'house gun' long before I got into buying and shooting my own firearms.

I shot many, many rounds using the so called FBI loads back in the late 90's and on. I shot regular 38Special, Plus P and 357Magnum HP ammunition.

I think that the famous FBI load was in 158Grain. I could be wrong but I do not think so. I specifically bought ammo that stated that it was an FBI type of load many years ago. My late husband kept a few boxes of 357Magnum AND 38Special on hand for me for the 'house gun' long before I ever bought my own guns and got into shooting.

I never felt that was not good enough and if I still owned/shot HANDGUNS, which I do not due to my old lady issues, I would still be shooting those handgun calibers and what I used to own.

I do not reload, I never did reload/hand load, I used to buy my name brand ammunition and shoot various calibers on one day alone. I shot a LOT of 22lr firearms on the same day so my hands/wrists could handle my practice in my late 40's and on. I started out with the larger calibers and took a brief break. Then I shot the 22lr firearms.

I was always TOLD and READ that 38Special, Plus P if your firearm was 'rated for handling it' and 357Magnum were excellent choices for self defense for ordinary people and not just for policemen.

I used to shoot a lot of 9mm in my former Glock too.

I don't think that every policeman who carried the older loads in their older handguns felt that they were underpowered but in SOME CASES they were in days gone by.

Unless they are going to use rifles or shotguns, how do you figure that any handgun caliber including larger ones like in a 44 or 45 are going to help them when someone is bat poop crazy on drugs and acting like a Mad Man?

I think that the 44Magnum, 44Special and 45Long Colt are VERY good calibers too.

I think that the 45acp caliber is very good even if I Never Owned a 45acp pistol. My husband uses the '45' caliber the most and he is an older man who thinks that IT is still a great round.

I do NOT know jack squat about the '40' caliber but I have read that it is popular. I never shot a '40' caliber handgun. I never handled a '40' caliber handgun. I was never interested in it either personally.

If handgun calibers are not going to help a peace officer with a doped up person or a BUNCH of them even though he has BACK UP present or coming to HELP HIM - maybe they need to carry a high capacity shotgun with them since that might stop the crazy criminal/criminals.

A rifle would or could GO through the bad guy and HIT someone behind them or to the side of them in a crowd. So that might not work unless you are in a war zone EVEN if some neighborhoods are like WAR zones! Now if you have a trained sniper on a Swat Team... that would work but the ordinary peace officer on the BEAT walking like in the OLD DAYS or even now in some cities or driving his car does not have a sniper right next to him to help him out when he comes across the doped up criminal crazies.

Is the 40 caliber more popular now than the 9mm or 45acp for most police departments now? I have NO clue.

But I did read that some men and women could NOT handle some larger pistol calibers in some departments so they went back to the 9mm pistols.

I always read that you use your handgun to GET to your rifle too.

Maybe police departments should have their men carry their shotguns on a sling - beats me. They already have to CARRY A BUNCH OF HEAVY STUFF ON THEM NOW. Plus throw in a vest if they wear one.

So what do you suggest is the BEST pistol caliber for a peace officer to use in this day and age? Back up one?

What would you suggest for a homeowner in a rural or suburban or city house, condo or apartment (Think of those walls now and beyond!) if they have to deal with a home invasion by one or more doped up or just bad s! crazy VIOLENT people?

Serious question and we can agree to disagree on some calibers.

Thank you.

Cate
PS: My MT husband used to reload LOTS of 357Magnum, 38Special and Plus P for himself and for me too. For OUR s/a and d/a revolvers and for pistol caliber lever action rifles. He made me MANY ROUNDS of the famous FBI loads but he is sleeping now so I can't ask him what he used there. He loaded those rounds for many years long before me met me too. We are senior citizens. He has been reloading since the early 70's.
Typos!

 

[Member 52301]

Yep. Remember the Thompson Lagard military study about 100 years ago.? Where they deemed you needed to make a 3" hole through the chest or hit a femur, pelvis, spine or nog to make a fella really have an owie right now.

I never heard of this. I will look it up. Thank you.

Cate

Added more:
Thompson-LaGarde

The Thompson-LaGarde Tests and the Birth of the Colt .45 - Guns.com

Wow, there are tons of links for this and thanks again!

 

[OldBroad44]

... There's no true way to know what will work in a panic situation, and believe me, we ALL panic when an intruder is in our home.

Speak for yourself. I've had an intruder in my home. I didn't panic. Nor have I panicked in other emergencies, ones trained for or not. Nor, for that matter have my mother, father, or siblings panicked in emergencies. And its obvious from various threads that plenty of others here have also dealt with home invasions and other emergencies without panic. It's also obvious that many people do panic in emergencies. However, panic is neither universal nor obligatory.

 

[OldBroad44]

Yes...and No.

You've heard "Aways cuff a corpse."?

The story, (as I was told), came from a Highway patrol officer who was attacked by a drunk biker. Things went south and the officer drew his weapon and shot him in the head.

Hole in the front. Blood out the back. Biker goes down.

The officer was filling out paperwork, waiting for backup, EMS, supervisor...when he is attacked by the biker.

When they got the biker to the hospital, they discovered that the bullet never penetrated the skull. It traveled between the skin and the skull and knocked the biker unconscious.

Thas wasnt penetrating and messing up brain. Shooting for brain and missing doesnt prove that a brain shot is inadequate.

Round nose bullets can deflect off skulls, especially if they hit at an angle. And HP bullets that dont expand because of insufficicient speed or noses getting plugged are just round nose bullets.

Theres lots of interesting bullet/ammo penetration tests on YouTube. But all Ive seen arrange things so the metal plates or wood to be penetrated is perpendicular to the line of fire, so tells us nothing about the tendency of the bullet to deflect. Would like to see such tests also done with the metal or wood at a steep angle. (Downward, so ground catches bouncing bullets.)

 

[Member 52301]

My husband is awake now and he told me that Smith and Wesson did make a 45Long Colt d/a revolver.

It is a Model 25 and it is very pretty!

They show it on their website and there are other links for it on internet searches.

Model 25 - S&W Classics 6 1/2" Blue | Smith & Wesson

Cate

 

[Certaindeaf]

My husband is awake now and he told me that Smith and Wesson did make a 45Long Colt d/a revolver.

It is a Model 25 and it is very pretty!

They show it on their website and there are other links for it on internet searches.

Model 25 - S&W Classics 6 1/2" Blue | Smith & Wesson

Cate

Fitzgerald used new service Colt .45's for his Fitz Specials.. he carried them in his pants pockets about 100 years ago.

 

[OldBroad44]

My husband is awake now and he told me that Smith and Wesson did make a 45Long Colt d/a revolver.

It is a Model 25 and it is very pretty!

They show it on their website and there are other links for it on internet searches.

Model 25 - S&W Classics 6 1/2" Blue | Smith & Wesson

Cate

SW also used to make the 625 Mountain Gun, a stainless 4-incher with a skinny barrel. Same design as the 629 Mountain gun, but in .45 Colt instead of .44 magnum. But basically, SW has abandoned .45 Colt, with the exception of the blued gun mentioned in a single barrel length. And the .460s that also shoot .45 Colt, but are way too heavy if all you want is .45 Colt.

 

[koolminx]

Speak for yourself. I've had an intruder in my home. I didn't panic. Nor have I panicked in other emergencies, ones trained for or not. Nor, for that matter have my mother, father, or siblings panicked in emergencies. And its obvious from various threads that plenty of others here have also dealt with home invasions and other emergencies without panic. It's also obvious that many people do panic in emergencies. However, panic is neither universal nor obligatory.

I understand that, and by panic I mean feel emotions not normally associated with waking up to no intruders in my home. There is ALWAYS emotion inherent in finding the unexpected, it's how we handle it as individuals that makes us our own first weapon of defense of our homes. So maybe panic was too strong of a word.
I've woken up to people being in my house that didn't belong there, but they weren't necessarily intruders, simply drunk friends and there was surprise at their presence but not panic.