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Reality Regarding Caliber "Stopping Power"

Dan Adams

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This podcast is an eye opener. Massad Ayoob interviewed a Chicago cop with 30+ years of experience. Along with some excellent advice ("You do what you need to do to get home at the end of the day. [In a gunfight] you have to come out the winner."), he recounts a story about a man who attacked his partner with a knife. The partner first shot the guy six times with Silvertip hollowpoint 45 Long Colt at very close range; all shots hit center mass. When that didn't stop the attacker, the partner then pulled his back-up gun and put five .38s from his J-frame revolver into the attacker's chest at point blank range. Still under attack, the partner called for help. The interviewee put four more shots into the guy's body (240 grain semi-jacketed flat-noise .44 Magnum bullets) with his Model 29 from 15 feet; 2 hits went into the attacker's upper torso, one into the guy's thigh and another into his kneecap. (That's 15 shots in all.) At that point, the two cops were able to cuff the attacker, who lived for 10 days before expiring. The autopsy showed there were no drugs in the attacker's blood which showed only .02 alcohol. By the way, the attacker was only 5 ft 7 inches tall and weighed about 140 pounds. "We physically decimated this guy."

The story starts at about 7 minutes 40 seconds into the podcast, with more in-depth details starting at 8:22 and the full description of the action starting at 9:30.
 
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Dan Adams

Dan Adams

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Too much training for torso hits and not enough for the head. Mess up the brain and it lights off.
True. However, find yourself in a gunfight and you might have a hard time hitting the old cabeza. It's a small target! A friend who's a retired sheriff's deputy and also served in Vietnam, has been in a lot of shooting situations. In training with simunitions (which hurt!), he almost always came out of live fire exercises as the winner, with hits to torso and head (2 + 1) against multiple attackers. In a real gunfight? Not the same result in most cases. (He was praised once for being accurate enough to hit a shooter in the knee, stopping the fight without killing the guy. "I was shooting for center mass," my friend explained....
 
Drawing conclusions over exceptions to the rule while great campfire fodder seems ridiculous as a scientific endeavor.
I'm aware of at least six deer taken with 22magnum (Winchester model 275) truck gun by a now deceased Roseburg logger in the 60's. most with one shot.
Also, on the other end, what was thought to be one humane shot, turned into a horrifying commit to an action when a cantankerous and mean old Lama was eventually put down by a farmer, but not before it had six 357 magnum direct hits to the head, (point blank, within inches) the lama was still upright and cantankerous, requiring a reload and a heart shot.
It would just seem that the concept of "stopping power" is mostly subjective, and has as much to do with tenacity and will to live as it does caliber..
 

Alexx1401

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This is becoming something we get to see a lot more now days, since there is a camera everywhere. Some times it's scary to see some Dobad soaking up multiple hits from a service weapon and refusing to stop. This normally is what I can drug zombies. Some drugs turn some Dobads into something that just does not feel pain.
Of course what is never made a huge deal over are the people who drop from one shot with something like a .22 or .25. No one wants to flash that all over of course. There is one out there of some poor LEO who was killed with one hit from a .22 fired from a NAA mini revolver.
Also pretty much all of us will go our entire life and never shoot anyone. Now this does not mean I will ever go unarmed. Also does make me some times carry something larger even though I still often only have a "mouse gun". Since it's hard to pack a 12Ga around with me, do the best I can and hope for the best :)
 

Alexx1401

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Bullet placement is critical and the smaller the bullet the more critical it becomes. If you can take the brain out or damage it the body will not operate or function well if at all. I know in a firefight that is easier said than done.
Yep, this is how it works no matter where the shots are placed. To stop them the brain has to be stopped. If you can't hit the brain, you have to do something else to "turn it off". Normally this is done with pain, and blood flow. Some shut down fast due to pain. Others not so much if at all. For those who pain does not work, normally it's blood flow. Make the blood pressure drop so low the brain is oxygen starved and can't work. Some times this seems to take one hell of a lot.
With so many of the dobads now days using body armor I regularly practice for that point high in the chest, base of the neck, shots. If you can make a hit here it will miss armor, good chance of hitting spine, and if nothing else will certainly cause a lot of blood pressure loss to brain switch. Now of course in an all out fight this is nothing like doing it on paper. Still practice it weekly.
 
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This podcast is an eye opener. Massad Ayoob interviewed a Chicago cop with 30+ years of experience. Along with some excellent advice ("You do what you need to do to get home at the end of the day. [In a gunfight] you have to come out the winner."), he recounts a story about a man who attacked his partner with a knife. The partner first shot the guy six times with Silvertip hollowpoint 45 Long Colt at very close range; all shots hit center mass. When that didn't stop the attacker, the partner then pulled his back-up gun and put five .38s from his J-frame revolver into the attacker's chest at point blank range. Still under attack, the partner called for help. The interviewee put four more shots into the guy's body (240 grain semi-jacketed flat-noise .44 Magnum bullets) with his Model 29 from 15 feet; 2 hits went into the attacker's upper torso, one into the guy's thigh and another into his kneecap. (That's 15 shots in all.) At that point, the two cops were able to cuff the attacker, who lived for 10 days before expiring. The autopsy showed there were no drugs in the attacker's blood which showed only .02 alcohol. By the way, the attacker was only 5 ft 7 inches tall and weighed about 140 pounds. "We physically decimated this guy."

The story starts at about 7 minutes 40 seconds into the podcast, with more in-depth details starting at 8:22 and the full description of the action starting at 9:30.
I don't see a link here. Am I missing something?
 

AndyinEverson

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Bullets of any type can do weird things when they hit flesh...
Plus never underestimate a person's will to live...
I have seen men hit with what should have been lethal wounds ...yet continue to fight and I have seen men who were hit "lightly" and drop right there...

In "reality" its really simple...
It really don't matter what I or anyone else has to say , other than :
Use whatever caliber , gun and bullet type , that you and your gun shoots and hits the best with...
Then if you need to shoot , shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.
Andy
 

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