No charges in Seattle police shooting of wood carver

[MountainBear]

As for relying on news reports, how do you know the World Trade Center was destroyed on Sept. 11? Were you there?

I know it was destroyed. From watching the video, I can ascertain the plane flying into it caused that. But I cannot tell you the details of what structural details or engineering factors played into the actual collapse. In the other case (I haven't seen the news coverage or the video of the event, to be honest) I could probably tell rough generalities, but I cannot ascertain the (former) Officer or the other man involved's frame of mind or intentions. You all conclude that he was just a guy out for a walk. I would argue that we will never know his intentions, as he is not here to share them. Sometimes people confuse me. If he'd waited longer, and the guy did have hostile intentions, and the (former) officer had been hurt or killed, many here would be saying he should have acted earlier, that it was his fault he had been killed for not acting soon enough (I believe there was a thread a while ago about a veteran killing an officer where this was the case, so this is not a random assumption, but rather an observation). But instead, he feels threatened, acts, the other man is killed, and you call for his head (even without a charge being brought, and with him resigning, not being terminated). I sometimes feel there is no way to please some people. There is no right answer with you regarding police behavior. We're not going to disband the police (it will never happen), so what's your answer? I don't have one either.

Or do you just take everything they say as is like a good little slave?

With all due respect, you should be careful with comments like that. The slave reference is distasteful and attacking me personally by referencing me in this regard without ever having met me is not fair judgment on your part. If you care to meet me, sit down, and rationally discuss issues regarding to personal freedoms and civil liberties, and then feel like referencing me in a derogatory matter, fine. But to do so with no knowledge of me, my background, my occupation, my life in general, is not proper.

Thanks for reading. This topic (police) is very personal to me, as you may have figured. So I'm going to back off this thread. Yelling at a brick wall does very little good to anyone...

 

[RB87]

I did not read through all of the posts.
Did somebody already post about the fact that even if the AG wanted to file charges he could not?
How I understand it, as the State Law is written there could not be charges filed even against the cop.
So, if you want to get upset, get upset at the law that is on the books and work to get it changed.
There are far more good LEO's out there than there are those that are bad.
Who of your here has to put body armor on everyday to do their jobs?

And depending on the survey cops aren't in the top10 of most dangerous jobs or right at #10. Most of their deaths come from traffic accidents not shootings.

<broken link removed>

 

[MountainBear]

And depending on the survey cops aren't in the top10 of most dangerous jobs or right at #10. Most of their deaths come from traffic accidents not shootings.

<broken link removed>

I know I said I was done with this thread, but the above statement isn't completely correct. Check this link ( <broken link removed> ) and you'll see more died from gunfire than from traffic accidents. It come closer to equal if you add hit by traffic and motorcycle accidents (as well as plane and boat) but skews again when you add assault and vehicular assault to the other side. Just more information rather than condemnation of your statement.

 

[mjbskwim]

Criminals aren't afraid of our justice system and jails are only houses to help improve the criminal mind and make people more heartless and hateful. Along with that mental diseases ar on the rise and police have no way of dealing with these kinds of problems.

My ex has a friend that is a criminal justice professor.She has interviewed violent prisoners and has concluded that most of them don't ever think of the consequences before they commit a crime.
It's just something they are going to do,no matter what.

 

[BSG 75]

You all conclude that he was just a guy out for a walk. I would argue that we will never know his intentions, as he is not here to share them.

And why isn't he here to share them?

As for intentions, according to testimony from witnesses who were there, there was was only one person in the area who felt threatened by Mr. Williams: the guy with a gun who jumped out of his vehicle, chased after Williams, and then shot and killed him seconds later.

Sometimes people confuse me. If he'd waited longer, and the guy did have hostile intentions, and the (former) officer had been hurt or killed, many here would be saying he should have acted earlier, that it was his fault he had been killed for not acting soon enough (I believe there was a thread a while ago about a veteran killing an officer where this was the case, so this is not a random assumption, but rather an observation). But instead, he feels threatened, acts, the other man is killed, and you call for his head (even without a charge being brought, and with him resigning, not being terminated).

If, what if, woulda coulda shoulda. His own department said the shooting was unjustified and egregious. Is the Seattle Police Department a bunch of "cop haters", as anyone who questions events like this is often accused of being?

And don't kid yourself, Birk resigned to avoid being fired. It will be easier for him to find another law enforcement job that way. The reason he wasn't charged was because Washington State law gives LEOs a pass if they kill someone because of bad judgment or incompetence, as long as they didn't act with malice. The fact that he wasn't charged and he quit before he was fired is in no way a vindication or proof of innocence.

I sometimes feel there is no way to please some people. There is no right answer with you regarding police behavior. We're not going to disband the police (it will never happen), so what's your answer? I don't have one either.

What do you mean there is no right answer regarding police behavior? How about not shooting people who don't deserve to be shot? How about better training? How about not putting relatively inexperienced officers out on their own too soon? How about holding officers accountable when they screw up like this? And I'm not talking about making taxpayers cough up $$$ when the victim or his family sues, while the officer and department responsible pay nothing. How about requiring officers to carry liability insurance the way doctors and other professionals do, so if they screw up they will be personally sued and be held liable, rather than making we the taxpayers pay when officers use excessive force?

How about not making "going home to my family at the end of my shift" the top priority? If going home at the end of your shift is your top priority, become a shoe salesman or librarian. Imagine if firefighters put their own personal safety above everything else: "Oh no, I can't go into that burning house to rescue that family, I might not be able to go home to my own family at the end of my shift!" Police work is sometimes a risky and dangerous profession. People who can't accept that risk and danger shouldn't be officers. I'm not saying police should be reckless and take foolish and unnecessary risks, but they shouldn't try to eliminate the risk and danger by shooting first and saying "I feared for my life" later. That's why it is a tough job, and not everyone is cut out for it.

I respect the many cops who put the law, their oath, and the safety of the public - and yes that includes bums like John T. Williams - above their own personal safety. They have earned and deserve our respect and support. The others who don't, not so much.

 

[Partsproduction]

Check this link (Honoring Officers Killed in the Year 2010) and you'll see more died from gunfire than from traffic accidents.

I did a little googling too ( for perspective; About That 'War on Cops' ... by William Norman Grigg), the ratio of police killed in the line of duty to innocent people killed by police in this country is almost 1 to 10. You people in this forum who always jump to the defense of bad cops should check out statistics, what possible good can come from defending the murder of innocent people? (That's right, some of it is really government sanctioned murder, why else do police get a pass for doing what I would go to jail for the rest of my life for?)
Am I more likely to be killed by a cop than to kill a cop? The facts support that conclusion. I'm not saying I'd be any different if I had their job, they are constantly reminded that they could be shot by some meth head, they are not constantly reminded that they are much more likely to kill an innocent person!

If police would at least recognize the problem that would be a huge step towards a just police force. The fact is that any time you or I are suddenly placed in close proximity to police we are in much greater danger than we are normally in. Calling me a cop hater doesn't change that fact! What would change it? I don't know.

I got stopped the other day by OSP, the young guy asked if I had drugs or guns in the car with me, "I have a pistol and permit" I said, "show it to me slowly" he replied, I held up my coat pocket so he could see that dab of plastic masquerading as a gun in my pocket, I handed over my license and permit.
As he went back to run my info he said "Don't go for your coat!" I giggled, and when I did he giggled too. But the facts were there, I showed him that I had passed a criminal background check, but he was still nervous that I might shoot him. Now, would someone here explain to me why I was more likely to shoot him than the other way around? The only way anyone can say that is if they are deliberately ignoring the statistics!

 

[capdek]

And why isn't he here to share them?

As for intentions, according to testimony from witnesses who were there, there was was only one person in the area who felt threatened by Mr. Williams: the guy with a gun who jumped out of his vehicle, chased after Williams, and then shot and killed him seconds later.



If, what if, woulda coulda shoulda. His own department said the shooting was unjustified and egregious. Is the Seattle Police Department a bunch of "cop haters", as anyone who questions events like this is often accused of being?

And don't kid yourself, Birk resigned to avoid being fired. It will be easier for him to find another law enforcement job that way. The reason he wasn't charged was because Washington State law gives LEOs a pass if they kill someone because of bad judgment or incompetence, as long as they didn't act with malice. The fact that he wasn't charged and he quit before he was fired is in no way a vindication or proof of innocence.




What do you mean there is no right answer regarding police behavior? How about not shooting people who don't deserve to be shot? How about better training? How about not putting relatively inexperienced officers out on their own too soon? How about holding officers accountable when they screw up like this? And I'm not talking about making taxpayers cough up $$$ when the victim or his family sues, while the officer and department responsible pay nothing. How about requiring officers to carry liability insurance the way doctors and other professionals do, so if they screw up they will be personally sued and be held liable, rather than making we the taxpayers pay when officers use excessive force?

How about not making "going home to my family at the end of my shift" the top priority? If going home at the end of your shift is your top priority, become a shoe salesman or librarian. Imagine if firefighters put their own personal safety above everything else: "Oh no, I can't go into that burning house to rescue that family, I might not be able to go home to my own family at the end of my shift!" Police work is sometimes a risky and dangerous profession. People who can't accept that risk and danger shouldn't be officers. I'm not saying police should be reckless and take foolish and unnecessary risks, but they shouldn't try to eliminate the risk and danger by shooting first and saying "I feared for my life" later. That's why it is a tough job, and not everyone is cut out for it.

I respect the many cops who put the law, their oath, and the safety of the public - and yes that includes bums like John T. Williams - above their own personal safety. They have earned and deserve our respect and support. The others who don't, not so much.

 

[Partsproduction]

I know that I'm talking about a perception based on unusual cases, but nonetheless that's what is becoming "normal" for many of us.
Pretty scary bunch out there in Tillamook, eh?

Do you think it's any different here than anywhere else? Do you think we don't have scared young cops here that would sooner shoot me than take a chance I might be a druggie with a gun who is waiting to put a "cop notch" on his gun? Stats don't lie, police are dangerous here too.

What's to gain by denying that police shooting innocent people doesn't happen, and a heck of a lot more often than the other way around?

I appreciate the value of police, without police we would live in a nightmare, but the trade off is that cops sometimes shoot innocent people. That's a fact you should acknowledge.

 

[Dave Workman]

I did not read through all of the posts.
Did somebody already post about the fact that even if the AG wanted to file charges he could not?
How I understand it, as the State Law is written there could not be charges filed even against the cop.
So, if you want to get upset, get upset at the law that is on the books and work to get it changed.
There are far more good LEO's out there than there are those that are bad.
Who of your here has to put body armor on everyday to do their jobs?

Lemme see if I have this straight. You don't know the answer to this? I detailed it in my column. Didn't you read the column? All you need to do is click the link.

The state law is explained. The limitation on the prosecutor is explained.

And yes, you're right, there are a lot of really good cops out there, and no doubt most of them would not have allowed this situation to escalate. The whole thing may never have even happened.

But as I said in my column, if people don't like the law, they should troop down to Olympia and change it.


Woodcarver shooting aftermath: Change the law, don't crucify prosecutor

King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg yesterday stepped up to the plate as too few public officials would and explained matter-of-factly that under current state statute, his office could not prosecute a Seattle police officer for shooting a woodcarver last August.
Public reaction has been largely negative, but a careful reading of RCW 9A.16.040, as this column quoted yesterday, left Satterberg no option.


<broken link removed>

Or try this:

<broken link removed>

 

[clearconscience]

Lemme see if I have this straight. You don't know the answer to this? I detailed it in my column. Didn't you read the column? All you need to do is click the link.

The state law is explained. The limitation on the prosecutor is explained.

And yes, you're right, there are a lot of really good cops out there, and no doubt most of them would not have allowed this situation to escalate. The whole thing may never have even happened.

But as I said in my column, if people don't like the law, they should troop down to Olympia and change it.


Woodcarver shooting aftermath: Change the law, don't crucify prosecutor

King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg yesterday stepped up to the plate as too few public officials would and explained matter-of-factly that under current state statute, his office could not prosecute a Seattle police officer for shooting a woodcarver last August.
Public reaction has been largely negative, but a careful reading of RCW 9A.16.040, as this column quoted yesterday, left Satterberg no option.


<broken link removed>

Or try this:

<broken link removed>

Or put on a uniform and do a better job yourself! You guys are probably the same ones yelling at the TV during the football game saying, why did you throw it to him! You should have went for it on 4th down! I could throw better than that!

Well then couch quarterback get up and do it yourself.
This world and our society are getting more dangerous. Dangerous to us, dangerous for LEOs. They have to make split second decisions that could mean their life, or in this case someone else's life.
They have to deal with drinking coffee in a coffee shop and having some piece of trash shoot them and their 3 fellow officer's. Or did we forget about that?

It's a free country and as such you have all the right to say what you feel. But that's also what lazy people and cowards do. If you want a change get off your rump and go do a better job. Or you can come up with a solution that makes criminals less likely to kill without thought or remorse.

But no you will sit in your computer chair saying how wrong someone else was for being in a dangerous situation and making a call. Maybe wrong, maybe not.

 

[dmancornell]

But no you will sit in your computer chair saying how wrong someone else was for being in a dangerous situation and making a call. Maybe wrong, maybe not.

The only danger in that particular situation was a rogue cop with license to kill.

 

[Redcap]

And why isn't he here to share them?

As for intentions, according to testimony from witnesses who were there, there was was only one person in the area who felt threatened by Mr. Williams: the guy with a gun who jumped out of his vehicle, chased after Williams, and then shot and killed him seconds later.


If, what if, woulda coulda shoulda. His own department said the shooting was unjustified and egregious. Is the Seattle Police Department a bunch of "cop haters", as anyone who questions events like this is often accused of being?

And don't kid yourself, Birk resigned to avoid being fired. It will be easier for him to find another law enforcement job that way. The reason he wasn't charged was because Washington State law gives LEOs a pass if they kill someone because of bad judgment or incompetence, as long as they didn't act with malice. The fact that he wasn't charged and he quit before he was fired is in no way a vindication or proof of innocence.




What do you mean there is no right answer regarding police behavior? How about not shooting people who don't deserve to be shot? How about better training? How about not putting relatively inexperienced officers out on their own too soon? How about holding officers accountable when they screw up like this? And I'm not talking about making taxpayers cough up $$$ when the victim or his family sues, while the officer and department responsible pay nothing. How about requiring officers to carry liability insurance the way doctors and other professionals do, so if they screw up they will be personally sued and be held liable, rather than making we the taxpayers pay when officers use excessive force?

How about not making "going home to my family at the end of my shift" the top priority? If going home at the end of your shift is your top priority, become a shoe salesman or librarian. Imagine if firefighters put their own personal safety above everything else: "Oh no, I can't go into that burning house to rescue that family, I might not be able to go home to my own family at the end of my shift!" Police work is sometimes a risky and dangerous profession. People who can't accept that risk and danger shouldn't be officers. I'm not saying police should be reckless and take foolish and unnecessary risks, but they shouldn't try to eliminate the risk and danger by shooting first and saying "I feared for my life" later. That's why it is a tough job, and not everyone is cut out for it.

I respect the many cops who put the law, their oath, and the safety of the public - and yes that includes bums like John T. Williams - above their own personal safety. They have earned and deserve our respect and support. The others who don't, not so much.

Well said. All of it.

 

[Father of four]

I agree Redcap!

 

[MountainBear]

Honestly, I see no further point in discussing it. I've stated my thoughts and the facts I use to back them up. Several of you have done likewise. Very few of us will change our minds on this subject.

Bottom line for me comes down to whether or not we fear our police. The fact is that I do not. Please do not call me a sheeple, slave, ignorant, blind, or any other derogatory thing. I choose to not fear the police. I trust most of them. I acknowledge that there are rotten apples in the barrel, but it has been both my personal and professional experience that there are more good than bad, and that the bad are disliked more by good cops than they are by the public. I would argue that media attention to tragic incidents like this one have led to a diminished trust of LEO's. I would argue that officer's today are more ethical and better trained than they ever have been. I would guess that there is a lower amount of incidents today than there has been in the past, however, incidents today are on youtube the moment they happen, where in the past they would barely have rated a second page story in a local newspaper somewhere and would not get the national media attention. Years ago this story would have appeared in the Seattle newspaper and maybe rated a story in Portland, but the nation as a whole would never have heard about it. Times have changed, and this is a good thing. Bad officers need to be exposed and removed. However, now officers are tried in the court of public opinion, and sometimes, are unjustly convicted there.

You all may think and say what you like. Its a mostly free country. I will do the same and continue to trust and support my local LEO's.

And with that, I'm crawling off my soap box for the day...

 

[supergenius]

Youre still here, or are you done.... again.

Birks a prick. Ive had a run in with him. He was a prick then too, but Im big, and white... and appear to have my life together, actually I told him to save his lecture and write me a ticket or dont... He didnt, just huffed his prick rear end back to his car after wasting my time.

... What about his body language tells you hes (Birktard) not on the offensive from the get go in that vid??? What of Williams says He (Williams) is?

Seems the people that WERE there agree. Seems a board of fellow law enforcement personel did too. DAMNED RIGHT he quit before getting fired. SPD better get their boys in line.

The feds ARE in town, Wish theyd make an example of this retard, not like he doesnt deserve it. 5 SHots within 10 seconds against a guy not posing any threat as correlated by people who were there??

Really??



Go hibernate.



RDCAP: Well said or quoted

 

[Scott]

Or put on a uniform and do a better job yourself! You guys are probably the same ones yelling at the TV during the football game saying, why did you throw it to him! You should have went for it on 4th down! I could throw better than that!

Well then couch quarterback get up and do it yourself.
This world and our society are getting more dangerous. Dangerous to us, dangerous for LEOs. They have to make split second decisions that could mean their life, or in this case someone else's life.
They have to deal with drinking coffee in a coffee shop and having some piece of trash shoot them and their 3 fellow officer's. Or did we forget about that?

It's a free country and as such you have all the right to say what you feel. But that's also what lazy people and cowards do. If you want a change get off your rump and go do a better job. Or you can come up with a solution that makes criminals less likely to kill without thought or remorse.

But no you will sit in your computer chair saying how wrong someone else was for being in a dangerous situation and making a call. Maybe wrong, maybe not.

I have to say I put on my flack jacket everyday with a bunch of other things on my back. I am actually getting tired of how hard cops have it. Somalia and Iraq is a lot more dangerous than the streets of Portland or Seattle. Plus they get to go home everynight. I have friends that are police and they are not worried and never drew their pistols yet. Training is very minimal at best with people and weapons.

Cops have unions to back them up. I bet they would not last in a military setting with physical fitness, mental attitude, weapons handling, honor. Cops have it easy and I will be hated for saying that but it is true. I respect their job but its not like many other jobs where the risk of death is much higher. They are well compensated, have a union that saves their butts when they screw up and get awesome pensions.

This guy is one lucky dude who shot a man with in what? 6 seconds of stopping his car and gets away with it. Oh boy he lost his job there but he will be back out in another city and I hope if that guy who was killed had family sues the crap out of the City of Seattle and the ex-officer for everything he has and ruins his life completely. I would never stop and keep taking him to court on civil issues and make him bankrupt the rest of his mortal exsistinence.

 

[Partsproduction]

I trust most of them. I acknowledge that there are rotten apples in the barrel, but it has been both my personal and professional experience that there are more good than bad,

Yes, most police are good, as good as the average person, no better on average. The problem we are talking about is with the bad ones, and the balance of police who defend the bad cops. Defend a bad cop and you share their "badness", in my opinion.

 

[Scott]

Yes, most police are good, as good as the average person, no better on average. The problem we are talking about is with the bad ones, and the balance of police who defend the bad cops. Defend a bad cop and you share their "badness", in my opinion.

So true and well said. I have seen people here defend every police action and it makes me wonder.

 

[Old Dog]

Several cop-hating asshats posting in this thread.

Cops have unions to back them up. I bet they would not last in a military setting with physical fitness, mental attitude, weapons handling, honor. Cops have it easy and I will be hated for saying that but it is true. I respect their job but its not like many other jobs where the risk of death is much higher. They are well compensated, have a union that saves their butts when they screw up and get awesome pensions.

Yeah, the unions are so great. Really protected us from the on-going pay cuts and benefits reductions. Military setting? Do you know how many of us are prior military? Retired military? Combat veterans? Have it easy? Please. Do you even have a job now? Well-compensated? Compared to what/whom? Union saves our butts? Really? Enlighten us all on the terrific unions in Washington state. Please! Awesome pensions? Huh? What state do you live in?

Please tell me where any of you are seeing any real cops ON THE INTERNET defending Ian Birk. You won't find any. You guys are having such fun jumping on your bandwagon and patting yourselves on the back for the creativity your'e displaying in each post cop-bashing post. At least learn to spell accurately and utilize some proper grammar.

 

[wichaka]

Only from Seattle. Anyone want to bet against me he finds his way back into in another LE position somewhere else?

Yep, I'll take your bet. He'll get his 'Peace Officer' certification pulled, which means he'll not see a LE position ever again.