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Fair enough. We’ve enough representatives for the cops here. Few for the guy who died.

Again, that is unfair to the members here. All of whom have lamented his death. Just stop it...

It's interesting how you see these things. Adversarial. Taking sides. Where most of us are just analyzing what happened and commenting or sharing our viewpoints on it. Sign of the times? SAD!!! :(
 
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I'll give a counter view. Whitaker didn't get killed for any of that stuff.

He got killed for creating a situation where the police need to respond to a DV complaint, which the caller expressed was a repeated event, and long in duration, and then answered the door brandishing a firearm. If you are making so much at 9-10pm at night that it forces a neighbor to call police twice (stating it's been going on for an hour) then you are a moron. Stop the loud arguments, stop slamming doors, etc. And let's just say it was innocent behavior; still, turn down the Kid Rock at 10pm, turn down the Xbox, etc. Don't do stuff that gets armed men to come and be your parents.

Secondly, don't put police under apprehension. Don't be the tough guy charging at police with a gun. And let's not split hairs. This guy probably knew it was cops, or must have at least suspected it was cops. Does he normally answer the door this way, flinging it open holding a handgun? So he flings the door open holding a partly concealed handgun behind his back or low ready. I'd certainly find that behavior erratic and threatening.

It is tragic. I blame schools, I blame culture, I blame lack of respect, I blame an inability to learn critical thinking skills and risk assessment abilities, etc. But this guy was 40. That's far too old to be playing dumb games like this.
When this first happened this is what I said after first watching it. He hears knocking so he flings the door open, gun in hand, and starts to STEP out with gun IN HAND. I'm sorry but this is "died of terminal stupidity" Don't want a camera? Great, do NOT fling the damn door open and start out with gun in hand. If he felt he "had to" open the door at all, open it a little, enough to see, with gun NOT SEEN. When he saw it was Cops he could have backed away and kept the gun out of site. Jumping out at them with gun in hand was a fatal error. One I can say I would not make. Anyone who is not able to control their emotions any better than this should not own a gun. Gun owners trying to make excuses for this guy trouble me a lot. That they think this is something that's OK to do is scary.

IMO, there is an abundance of "tough guys" in America. We all know or have run across a common bully or hothead. Road rage types. Most of their lives, they win thru intimidation. But every once in awhile they meet up with a higher power.

In this case, I BELIEVE (I don't KNOW) that it's not the first time the guy had caused problems with his neighbors. He cops a 'tude, gonna beat or scare the "F" out of whomever has the gall to bother him, or complain, by jumping out the door armed and screaming "WHAT???". But instead, he has been swatted. His time for such aggressive behavior has run out. Sorry Charlie...
 
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My opinion is less about the actual shooting and more about the information provided about the shooting. I highly disagree with releasing the videos to the general public at this stage. We have a system of justice in place to determine right or wrong. It is not up to John or Jane Public to decide innocence or guilt outside of being on the jury. Frankly, most people are ignorant of what is or is not allowed by law. Only looking at a brief video tells you very little of the whole situation. The public relations officer did not advise the viewer about police policy or what the statutes say regarding use of force. He did not provide the police reports or written statements of the officers, EMTs, girlfriend or witnesses. IMO, this undermines the whole legal process. I understand why this is now being done by LE agencies across the country, but I wish it would stop. Good luck finding an impartial jury. This crap just serves to divide America even more.

Want to be a judge, then go to law school.
 
Again, that is unfair to the members here. All of whom have lamented his death. Just stop it...

It's interesting how you see these things. Adversarial. Taking sides. Where most of us are just analyzing what happened and commenting or sharing our viewpoints on it. Sign of the times? SAD!!! :(

And again, I don't see it as adversarial to hold a different opinion. At the end of the day, whether or not you think the officers acted one way or another or Whitaker one way or another does let you fall on different "sides" of the issue. My point was that the majority of opinions on this thread fall to the officers-did-nothing-wrong side and I very much disagree with that perspective, as I've said. Is that inherently adversarial?
 
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And again, I don't see it as adversarial to hold a different opinion. At the end of the day, whether or not you think the officers acted one way or another or Whitaker one way or another does let you fall on different "sides" of the issue. My point was that the majority of opinions on this thread fall to the officers-did-nothing-wrong side and I very much disagree with that perspective, as I've said. Is that inherently adversarial?

Nope. It's not having a diff opinion that shows you are adversarial. It's how you write up those opinions, being unfair to members here... saying that nobody is on the side of the guy that died. IMO, while there may be diff "sides" of an issue, as to viewpoints of what happened, most of us are not on "his side" or "their side" as you seem to indicate. That is adversarial IMO. No biggie. I think I'm done. Unhappy.
 
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My opinion is less about the actual shooting and more about the information provided about the shooting. I highly disagree with releasing the videos to the general public at this stage. We have a system of justice in place to determine right or wrong. It is not up to John or Jane Public to decide innocence or guilt outside of being on the jury. Frankly, most people are ignorant of what is or is not allowed by law. Only looking at a brief video tells you very little of the whole situation. The public relations officer did not advise the viewer about police policy or what the statutes say regarding use of force. He did not provide the police reports or written statements of the officers, EMTs, girlfriend or witnesses. IMO, this undermines the whole legal process. I understand why this is now being done by LE agencies across the country, but I wish it would stop. Good luck finding an impartial jury. This crap just serves to divide America even more.

Want to be a judge, then go to law school.

I don't want to be a judge, but I will use my brain to judge what is presented. And it won't make any diff to anybody, nor have any weight in any proceedings.

John Q. Public has been demanding release of videos of OIS, esp where it involves POC. (Edit: they accuse LE of "hiding" things if they don't get immediate video.) I do think that many of those video releases are premature and tend to sway public opinion one way or the other, sometimes unfairly.

However, I have also seen presentations that include as many facts as possible, and include an explanation of events. I think these CAN be a public service, but would agree that it's not appropriate if there is going to be a trial.

In THIS case, I don't think there will be a trial. So I don't think they'd release the video if they were going to charge the officers, unlike what happened in Atlanta where the DA really jumped the legal process.
 
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And again, I don't see it as adversarial to hold a different opinion. At the end of the day, whether or not you think the officers acted one way or another or Whitaker one way or another does let you fall on different "sides" of the issue. My point was that the majority of opinions on this thread fall to the officers-did-nothing-wrong side and I very much disagree with that perspective, as I've said. Is that inherently adversarial?

I can agree that the cops did not handle this perfectly. I can think of a number of things the cops could have done, and probably wish they would have done, differently in hindsight.
* They could have contacted the apartment management, gotten the phone number of the resident, and called him.
* They could have slipped a note under the door to announce their presence if their knock/announce wasn't heard.
* They could have stood in view of the peep hole (which puts them in direct line of fire and is tactically dangerous).
* They could have waited longer before shooting to give the deceased MORE time to put down his gun and comply, because in review it appears he was starting to comply but shot before completing compliance.
* I also have stated I don't like these DV calls and think the deceased was probably swatted by the neighbor using the police to harass - but having said that, maybe the neighbor knew how volatile this armed hothead is and feared him? Does this hothead always answer the door by flinging it open armed with a handgun?

Having said that, cops are humans and not perfect. Nor can we expect perfection. And at what point are civilians responsible for their contributions to their own demise? In other words, we see endless videos where a defiant civilian does one or a series of actions that create the crisis and emergency and force the cop to respond with life or death decisions in a split second. Much like self defense, you don't get to claim it if you're the cause of the violence.

We've deeply analysed what the cops did. Let's dive into the deceased.
* May 21 2020 was a Thursday. Whitaker was making loud enough noise at 9 and again still at 10pm, apparently a routine event, that forced his neighbor to call police twice to complain. This apparently isn't a college dormitory and Whitaker is old enough to know better. He's a 40 year old man living in a tiny apartment complex with neighbors who have their own jobs, careers, and responsibilities. You cannot behave this way and expect neighbors to tolerate it. Girlfriend said they were playing video games but that's largely irrelevant. Neighbor's statements about violence may have been a lie or inaccurate, but again that's largely irrelevant since the cops didn't come with guns drawn. Don't do things that require cops to come to your front door because now you have armed men coming to talk to you and that's not good.

* Whitaker flung the door open like a mad man.

* Whitaker boldy crossed the threshold with chest puffed out, and walked a good 2-3 feet into the common area hallway brandishing a firearm and said "What!?" Not smart. I've articulated why up thread but to restate, if he thought there was a need for a handgun waiting outside, then his opening the door and coming out ready for a lethal confrontation is bizarre. I can't reconcile this behavior other than it's a typical bully/idiot behavior.

* Whitaker put himself in an emergency life/death situation for which nobody could extract himself from. It's called the chain of causation, putting events into motion that are going to lead to a certain outcome which nobody can reasonably stop. Whitaker could have dropped the gun, rather than slowly put it down, and that might have saved him. But from his exiting the door to being shot was maybe 2-3 seconds. And the fluidity for a cop (or anyone) to draw and then press the trigger to fire (most people are taught to only draw if you feel threatened and need to fire) - he put those cops in a life/death OODA loop they could not reasonably exit.

* Consider that the cops know that an armed man holding a gun can raise it and fire in 1-2 seconds. They really had their hands forced due to Whitaker's actions. The cops certainly felt a flash of lethal force presented and they are entitled to act in self defense. And once they see that gun, from draw to fire is so fast that it's not reasonable to think a cop or any person can stop that muscle movement skillset of "see gun, draw and fire."

*** I have deeply considered whether cops gave Whitaker enough time to comply. I cannot say for sure one way or another, I can see and understand both arguments, but it was Whitaker who made a host of bad decisions which created the emergency and forced cops to make that split second call. Tie here goes to the police. A tragic but justified shooting due entirely to the chain of causation and numerous bad decisions all made by Whitaker that forced police to shoot him, IMO.
 
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IMO, there is an abundance of "tough guys" in America. We all know or have run across a common bully or hothead. Road rage types. Most of their lives, they win thru intimidation. But every once in awhile they meet up with a higher power.
You must have 'heard my thinking' as I was about to post something similar but you hit the 'nail on the head'.

Yes we have all know these types and most are expressing deep insecurities and anger through their talk (and most of it is) of threats, bravado and intimidation.

Social media has given these types another 'extension' and we have all read posts on forums, FB etc. from them espousing what they either have done, can do or would do to someone in a confrontational situation. Some seem to respond with 'admiration' to these types - personally I find them laughable.

Regardless we may never know if Whitaker is in this category or not but the bottom line is his actions and appearance greatly contributed to his own loss of life . In an 'roundabout' way he killed himself.
 
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And again, I don't see it as adversarial to hold a different opinion. At the end of the day, whether or not you think the officers acted one way or another or Whitaker one way or another does let you fall on different "sides" of the issue. My point was that the majority of opinions on this thread fall to the officers-did-nothing-wrong side and I very much disagree with that perspective, as I've said. Is that inherently adversarial?

I re-read the whole thread to see where there had been a suggestion as to what LEO SHOULD do in the case of a dude busting out his front door with a 'tude and a gun.

I have read 'bad shoot', 'scared', etc.

I missed the part where the cops run back to the squad and radio for a Community Relations Liaison to come sort out the mess.
 
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Yes we have all know these types and most are expressing deep insecurities and anger through their talk (and most of it is) of threats, bravado and intimidation.

Social media has given these types another 'extension' and we have all read posts on forums, FB etc. from them espousing what they either have done, can do or would do to someone in a confrontational situation. Some seem to respond with 'admiration' to these types - personally I find them laughable.

Yup.

I find them disgusting, but also pitiable. Personally, I'm secure enough in my manhood that I don't feel a need to act like that. And martial arts training has taught me that when I encounter it in others, I can walk away. However, LEOs called to the scene do NOT have the option of walking away. Nor do they have the option of ignoring danger and risks to their lives. Those that hesitate, often lose their lives... we shouldn't expect or demand that of LE. Yet, we constantly read or hear about how they should have waited (forever), shot the gun out of his hand, shot him in the leg, used pepper spray (or other less lethal) against a lethal risk, and other such unrealistic, ignorant, and unfair second guessing and monday morning qb. It's sad what we put our LE employees thru because of the few mistakes or bad actors among them.
 
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Said it on other threads, 2-4yrs there will be a shortage of cops as qualified new cadets seeing what is going on and the end results and chose a different career path. :(

As to this actual event, loss of life is terrible. More information is needed than just what has been presented. I am confident the proper procedures of justice will indeed have more information and will establish a better-qualified response than the internet can.
 
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We should make this a Sticky and when the LEO bashers show up we can refer them to this thread!

Quit saying LEOs should pick up a turd by the clean end and kindly elaborate to the class exactly how it is done.

I'll wait.
 
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looks like cops being cops, while using their union and qualified immunity to their full potential. I'm sure their paid vacation will teach them a lesson in the use of force.

As for how to police better? Killing fewer folks would be a great start.
 
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It is my considered opinion that there are too many dynamics involved for any of us to make a rational judgement concerning this event. None of us were the responding officer(s) and none of us were the victim of the shooting. I can say that every call that I ever went on was different. I can also say that situations are very fluid and cops need to be able to adapt to changes in the dynamics. They need to do so very quickly because if they don't, their name will be on a remembrance wall someplace. Everyone on this board that's worn a badge can relate stories about certain neighborhoods, repeat offenders, the perpetual problems from certain homes and a host of other regular occurring situations where the public thinks the cops need to be involved. We are watching the devolvement of our culture and society and unfortunately, the police are caught in the middle. I say, if you are a good citizen, don't answer your door with a gun. If you are a (pick your adjective) then you run the risk of being killed to death by a cop who will have to live with your miserable death for the rest of his life.
 

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