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That such is even a risk is...yep...sad commentary.

You've said you see it that way. But you don't see things from the side of the officers that we expect to do a job. That makes me sad for all of us, because there are more people that only see things one way.

And, you're assuming that ALL OIS are because an officer got scared. It seems to me that tho fear does exist, the shootings are generally because of a risk to the officer(s) or to the public. Fact of the job.
 
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"Show me your hands" means he's ordered to raise the weapon in his hand, while at his home. As another commented, there is no assurance the earlier announcement was clearly heard. It's ambiguous circumstances based on available information. But "Don't Move" would have been better.

"Show me your hands" seems to be a default command in the vids that I have seen. Question is, when the officer gave that command, did the officer that gave the command see the gun at the time of the command? If the gun was hidden behind the back at that point, maybe the officer wants to see that the hands are clear/empty???
 
"Show me your hands" means he's ordered to raise the weapon in his hand, while at his home. As another commented, there is no assurance the earlier announcement was clearly heard. It's ambiguous circumstances based on available information. But "Don't Move" would have been better.

“Officer, I am no threat but I am armed. Tell me what you want me to do”
 
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"Show me your hands" seems to be a default command in the vids that I have seen. Question is, when the officer gave that command, did the officer that gave the command see the gun at the time of the command? If the gun was hidden behind the back at that point, maybe the officer wants to see that the hands are clear/empty???

If the officer had not seen a weapon, there was no justification to shoot. I said it's an ambiguous scenario, could have gone different ways. I also said no prosecution, but there's enough IMO for a civil suit that would likely be settled before trial. If there is some violent prior history, relevance depends on whether the officers knew about it before responding.

I'm pro-police and realize the dangers in DV calls. Just saying, the choice of command and rapid firing opens questions.
 
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I don't have an educated opinion about the shoot itself (first inclination is I don't like it), but, just wondering if I get my new TV and Nikes in the mail or what?

I guess the dudes white privilege is why I hadn't heard of this one on any MSM.
 
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If the officer had not seen a weapon, there was no justification to shoot.

I'll try again in a diff wording... is the officer that gave the command, the same one that shot???

If so, what if he did see a weapon, then the weapon was hidden. Is it not somehow considered good to say "show me your hands" to see if the suspect had dropped the weapon or tucked it away... giving him a chance? Seems like that would be standard procedure for a prudent LEO. Then the suspect starts moving and gets shot... I can see it happening that way. But "don't move" would have been fine too.
 
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Think about it, armed home owner responds to a knock at the door, late at night, officers say show me your hands, and a fraction of a second later, he's down fatally shot. Others remarked that it's unclear whether the man took an offensive or defensive response to the command, then near instantly shot. I still think no charges against the officer, but civil liability is sufficiently an open question. Don't move and drop the weapon are also common commands issued by officers. Not here. We're all speculating - this is mine.
 
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From the video, I'd say it's a tragic but justified shooting. I'd also put the 911 caller on the hot seat with an investigation for what might have been Doxing because he was upset, and fabricated "physical" violence allegation. That may have put the police in a different mindset. As I saw it, the cops neither police officer had a weapon drawn at the start, and the loudly knocked and announced.

I have to agree with those proposing to keep the door closed and seek further positive ID from those knocking on the door. A simple "who is it?" and the police can ID themselves and discuss thru the door. This ends up being a non-event.

Instead this hothead flings open the door brandishing a handgun. The deceased's actions were inconsistent and not well thought out.
* If he truly suspected violence on the other side of the door to the point of needing a drawn handgun, then flinging the door open was a poor decision subjecting him to an attack.
* If he knew the cops were on the other side, opening the door with a drawn firearm was a fatal error.
* If he didn't know the nature of the late-night pounding, answering the door like that could be considered an assault. Let's assume it's his elderly neighbor coming over to ask them to be quiet. Answering the door with a firearm drawn is certainly hostile. And especially when he breaks the plane from his apartment to common area.
* Flinging the door open but being armed ready to fight are incompatible behaviors. And this got him justifiably killed.

I guess the lessons learned are not to answer the door this way. We routinely see people answer the door armed like this and getting popped immediately by cops. You may be "in the right" or may not be. You probably won't have time to follow any commands to put down the gun or show your hands.

If someone bangs on your door, whether using cameras or just talking thru the door, ID the people on the other side before taking any actions. Because if you fling the door open while armed, you're simply going to be living the last few seconds of your life.

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Different scenario, what if it wasn't the police at the door but instead a neighbor. Is this any way to answer the door for a neighbor? Imagine if you were the neighbor, and went over and knocked on the door, and the guy flings the door open wearing only shorts and holding a handgun. I'd feel at least somewhat shocked and threatened... I'd think he's a lunatic.
 
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This is what a man looks like who is about to die.

View attachment 739117

Here's just before the first shot.

View attachment 739118

The time between these two is less than 1.5 seconds, probably closer to less than 1 second (but I lack the tools to determine)

Whitaker is allowed to live in a crap neighborhood.
He's allowed to carry a gun.
He's allowed to defend himself, his family, and his property.

The officers are clearly out of peephole sight. They shine a bright light in his face the moment he opens the door. These are not defensive maneuvers.

And yet, in the mere moment that it took to get within sight of the officer, Whitaker begins going to the ground.

He was shot for *having* a gun in police presence. Not for aiming it at anyone. No-one's life was in immediate danger just by a guy having a gun.

God help us all if we ever have to use our concealed carry piece and the cops show up right as we're back in low ready, attempting to re-holster, or in sul.

I'll give a counter view. Whitaker didn't get killed for any of that stuff.

He got killed for creating a situation where the police need to respond to a DV complaint, which the caller expressed was a repeated event, and long in duration, and then answered the door brandishing a firearm. If you are making so much at 9-10pm at night that it forces a neighbor to call police twice (stating it's been going on for an hour) then you are a moron. Stop the loud arguments, stop slamming doors, etc. And let's just say it was innocent behavior; still, turn down the Kid Rock at 10pm, turn down the Xbox, etc. Don't do stuff that gets armed men to come and be your parents.

Secondly, don't put police under apprehension. Don't be the tough guy charging at police with a gun. And let's not split hairs. This guy probably knew it was cops, or must have at least suspected it was cops. Does he normally answer the door this way, flinging it open holding a handgun? So he flings the door open holding a partly concealed handgun behind his back or low ready. I'd certainly find that behavior erratic and threatening.

It is tragic. I blame schools, I blame culture, I blame lack of respect, I blame an inability to learn critical thinking skills and risk assessment abilities, etc. But this guy was 40. That's far too old to be playing dumb games like this.
 
You've said you see it that way. But you don't see things from the side of the officers that we expect to do a job. That makes me sad for all of us, because there are more people that only see things one way.

And, you're assuming that ALL OIS are because an officer got scared. It seems to me that tho fear does exist, the shootings are generally because of a risk to the officer(s) or to the public. Fact of the job.

I never said all offer involved shootings are due to fear. I did say that this one appeared to be.

Because I do not agree with these officer's actions does not mean I have not considered their point of view.
 
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I never said all offer involved shootings are due to fear. I did say that this one appeared to be.

Because I do not agree with these officer's actions does not mean I have not considered their point of view.

Yet, it is all you have said on the subject.

Just going by what you have written Brother.
 
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I'll give a counter view. Whitaker didn't get killed for any of that stuff.

He got killed for creating a situation where the police need to respond to a DV complaint, which the caller expressed was a repeated event, and long in duration, and then answered the door brandishing a firearm. If you are making so much at 9-10pm at night that it forces a neighbor to call police twice (stating it's been going on for an hour) then you are a moron. Stop the loud arguments, stop slamming doors, etc. And let's just say it was innocent behavior; still, turn down the Kid Rock at 10pm, turn down the Xbox, etc. Don't do stuff that gets armed men to come and be your parents.

Secondly, don't put police under apprehension. Don't be the tough guy charging at police with a gun. And let's not split hairs. This guy probably knew it was cops, or must have at least suspected it was cops. Does he normally answer the door this way, flinging it open holding a handgun? So he flings the door open holding a partly concealed handgun behind his back or low ready. I'd certainly find that behavior erratic and threatening.

It is tragic. I blame schools, I blame culture, I blame lack of respect, I blame an inability to learn critical thinking skills and risk assessment abilities, etc. But this guy was 40. That's far too old to be playing dumb games like this.

When this first happened this is what I said after first watching it. He hears knocking so he flings the door open, gun in hand, and starts to STEP out with gun IN HAND. I'm sorry but this is "died of terminal stupidity" Don't want a camera? Great, do NOT fling the damn door open and start out with gun in hand. If he felt he "had to" open the door at all, open it a little, enough to see, with gun NOT SEEN. When he saw it was Cops he could have backed away and kept the gun out of site. Jumping out at them with gun in hand was a fatal error. One I can say I would not make. Anyone who is not able to control their emotions any better than this should not own a gun. Gun owners trying to make excuses for this guy trouble me a lot. That they think this is something that's OK to do is scary.
 
Fair enough. We’ve enough representatives for the cops here. Few for the guy who died.

Next video showing a bad shoot and I’ll be right there with you. I ain’t burning schit down, but I’ll call it what it is. Like the chick in Texas who shot the dude in his own home as he sat there eating ice cream. That one sucked big time.
 
Next video showing a bad shoot and I’ll be right there with you. I ain’t burning schit down, but I’ll call it what it is. Like the chick in Texas who shot the dude in his own home as he sat there eating ice cream. That one sucked big time.

Ah, but the disagreement is in which direction this grey shoot leans. One thing that I think we will both agree on as an outcome from this, however: this only proves to me that we need more training, more time for training, and more budget for training. Also shows we need more consequences for superfluous 911 calls. This guy was essentially "swat-ed" at the end of the day.
 
Ah, but the disagreement is in which direction this grey shoot leans. One thing that I think we will both agree on as an outcome from this, however: this only proves to me that we need more training, more time for training, and more budget for training. Also shows we need more consequences for superfluous 911 calls. This guy was essentially "swat-ed" at the end of the day.

That fake 911 crap needs to have serious consequences. If that were the case here, I’d be ok with a murder or at least manslaughter charge.
 
but you gotta show both empty hands.

I suspect that may have helped when I had an encounter last year. Came home from work, no wife or little ones home, and in my home office, almost certainly farting around on NWFA. Outside I hear a vehicle (or vehicles) screaming up and two men talking fast between them. The only peeps that would be coming to this homestead tucked away in the middle of no where would be:

  • A delivery. Very unlikely as both me and wife have stuff shipped to my office in town for logistical ease.
  • Family coming home. Nope, that would be the sound of a woman trying to herd toddlers into a house, not two dudes rapidly approaching same.
  • One or more of the ethically bankrupt, mentally challenged, human garbage that inhabit this area, use meth, and rip stuff off. Sometimes doing so when people are around.
Fearing it was the latter, I stuffed an automatic in my waistband, and stepped outside to find ... two sheriff's deputes who now have their hands on their sidearms and are saying things like "Hands, hands, lets see hands". I complied with hands raise to the heavens (hallelujah). Then things got cordial. Turns out the blasted alarm system had sent the "panic" signal, over 45 minutes later the cavalry arrived, and we had our chat. One of the lawmen asked to check my ID to confirm I was the home owner rather than some jackass claiming to be said, and then strongly recommended I call the alarm company. And away they went. (I did call and it was nothing by a technological screw up with ADT.)

From my perspective I was fearing the worst. From the officer's perspective they were likely thinking someone is experiencing a home invasion and then a fellow steps out with a piece. Turns out it was not a problem for either of us. But in a narrow window of less than a few seconds, things could have been very different indeed. If nothing else, I gained a better perspective of those kinds of things.
 
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As @leadcounsel and @Alexx1401 pointed out, the dude whipped open the door and charged out. I think if he knew it was police he wouldn't have done that, but dude probably had the TV or Stereo up loud enough to hear the knocking but not the announcement. The physics are that the inside of his door was basically a drum, but the voice announcement had to penetrate the door. Anyway, I believe that if he had heard the announcement he would have opened the door differently and unarmed.

I don't however think that makes him less culpable in his own death -- I think (don't know) what he was doing was intending to intimidate whoever had the gall to ask him to keep the noise down -- he was going to jump out the door with a gun and posture like an bubblegum-hole. Then he sees it's the police but he's created a situation in which he has no safe way out of because he jumped out at them with a gun, and dies as a result.

I don't think the officer will be charged with a crime. I do think, depending on what the potential jury pool is like in his area that a civil settlement is possible -- if this happened in Portland or Seattle, I'd say a settlement was a sure thing.
 
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I don't however think that makes him less culpable in his own death -- I think (don't know) what he was doing was intending to intimidate whoever had the gall to ask him to keep the noise down -- he was going to jump out the door with a gun and posture like an bubblegum-hole. Then he sees it's the police but he's created a situation in which he has no safe way out of because he jumped out at them with a gun, and dies as a result.

Yep watched it again and on the second LEO's camera it sure sounds like he says "WHAT" as he is jumping out the door gun in hand. Even when the one shines a light in on him he heads towards the LEO. Played it several times and sure sounds like one word, WHAT. Like he wanted to confront whoever dared complain about the noise. As soon as he did he too late realizes what he has done.
Long ago Wife and I had neighbor who at least a couple times a month the two would come home 2 AM drunk, screaming at each other for us to listen too for a good hour.
My Wife is in the hospital for a couple days. Comes home to rest and get better. Since she is going to be in bed I take bedroom door to back yard to cut a dog door into it so dogs can come and go. Me doing this at 9:00 am must have woke him. He pops out, looks at me, yells "DO YOU KNOW ITS EARLY?" Having spent years listening to him at 2AM I was in no mood to play nice. I said that's really cool. Do you pop out every hour to give the time? Do you have feathers sticking out of your A$$? He jumped back into his home not seeming to think me funny at all. Another case of some moron who feels nothing about disturbing everyone when they are sleeping but don't you dare interrupt his sleep time.
 

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