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Talero, come to the Portland gun show this weekend and I can explain how it works in person. I'll have a bunch of silencers there for ya to check out.
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Talero, come to the Portland gun show this weekend and I can explain how it works in person. I'll have a bunch of silencers there for ya to check out.
I think that might be the big problem here. So I will try one more time even though this thread has gone so far off track.
How many NFA items do you own? IF you even own any, how many interactions have you had with ANY LEO? Please tell us about any FACTUAL information where the things you say will happen have happened, not just trying to quote law.
Since we are talking about "reading" laws lets start there. What does the law say about diving over the posted speed limit? Now do you get pulled over EVERY time you speed? Then EVERY time do you get a ticket? I am sure your answer is no, because that is how it actually works vs what the law actually says.
How about this. What does the law say about carrying concealed? How many times have you interacted with ANY LEO and had them actually ask to see your permit?
I drive a lot, so I speed a lot, I get pulled over a few times a year, I carry all the time. Very seldom do I get a ticket. In 17 years I have been asked if I have my permit several times and only been asked to show it one time and the funny thing it was 2 weeks ago.
Basically with NFA it "works" like this. You are doing your thing, no big deal. IF you happen to come into contact with an LEO again generally no big deal if nothing else is going on. If you come into contact with an LEO while you are doing something "questionable" at the time, and you have a bad attitude you may have a problem. To say that "If you dont show your papers you will go to jail" is complete BS, this is not Nazi Germany..............
I was buying, owning and USING silencers in WA even before our law changed a couple years ago. Even then and having contact with LEO's NEVER was I asked to show paperwork and NEVER did I have a bad interaction because that is NOT how it works.
304-616-4500
This is the number for the NFA branch of the ATF. You are free to do your homework with people that get PAID to educate.
The interpretation that you gleaned from your reading got a bit mis-wired.
I will say, please stop talking and start listening. Some people in this thread are experts on the subject.
ETA: Nwcid's is better at explaining stuff on the keyboard than I am. Good post above.
Talero, come to the Portland gun show this weekend and I can explain how it works in person. I'll have a bunch of silencers there for ya to check out.
Which are completely lawful to own and use in Oregon as long as you have the correct tax stamp.
The whole point has been missed. Done.
I missed a lot of points.
Let's say I am driving down the road with my select fire AR-15 SBR with a suppressor. I have all of the legal tax stamps in my possession.
I get pulled over for a traffic violation. The LEO spies the weapon on my back seat.
He asks if it's mine. I say "yes it is."
He then asks if I have any proof that it is legal for me to have it in my possession.
I respond with "yes sir I do, but I am not going to show you any documents to back up my claim of legal ownership."
"You are going to just have to take my word for it."
What are the chances that the LEO is going to let me drive away?
I'm not a lawyer and I'm not from Washington. I couldn't find the specific Washington laws on silencers, but the Oregon ones are pretty clear. So the comments I make likely won't apply in Washington. There were some people from Oregon that responded, so this is mostly for them.
If you're on private property (including a range) and the owner or manager wants to verify that your NFA item is legally possessed, that's their perogative. If you don't want to show them, fine. But if they ask you to leave and you don't you are tresspassing.
Chunky Milk: It appears from your location information that you are in Oregon. Silencers are illegal in Oregon. Possessing one is PC to question you.
You'd definitely need to show the papers to LEO if you are in Oregon. Range officer too if it's private property and requested, you may be tresspassing if you don't show. Private/membership club -- you might have a valid argument if you have a contract with them. It would depend on the details.
If you're in Oregon and it's an LEO asking, you'd better show them.
That's only at the Federal level. In Washington you may not have a state law making silencers illegal, but in Oregon there is.
Seems like you're in Oregon, but shoot in Washington at times...and you have the right attitude about it.
Now, for anyone that feels like jumping on me for saying that silencers are illegal in Oregon and want to dispute that point:
That is where silencers are illegal in Oregon.
Of course there's more to it than that:
So, there is an exception to the section making silencers illegal. Just so happens that the only way you can prove your silencer is registered under federal law is with your tax stamped form.
And yes, you can be arrested if you don't have your paperwork with you, even if you happen to have the correct paperwork, maybe at home in the safe or something. It will be hassle, but you'll be OK after the initial arrest/charge.
Are silencers illegal in Oregon
No, and never have been as far as I'm aware. From reading the relevant section of the law, one might assume so, but you have to read it all as one piece. Where is states "affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. ", this doesn't mean you get arrested and charged, go to court and have to prove they're registered to be acquitted. This is legal terminology similar to saying the the section doesn't apply to NFA items that are registered as per federal law.
Are you required to show NFA paperwork to a police officer in Oregon?
No you are not. That being said, a Police officer may arrest you for unlawful possession if you can not show that the item is registered pursuant to Federal law. He may also charge you with the same offense. We tell all our customers to have a copy of their NFA paperwork stored with the items and with you when using the item. Leave the originals in a safe place. With the acceptance of digital documents, it's my opinion that a .pdf or .jpg scan on a laptop or cell phone would also suffice.
What should I do if I have a copy of my paperwork and an Oregon Police officer tried to arrest me?
I highly recommend not preaching the law to them, but carrying a copy of the relevant statute to politely show them is useful, as well as having the phone number for the ATF in Portland. (503) 331-7830. Ask them to please call a supervisor before arresting you. If they still arrest you, then it's time to shut up and ask for a lawyer. The officer in question is a moron, but if you sit tight it will be sorted in due course. Do not, repeat do not resist. Remain calm.
Are you required to show FA paperwork to a range officer.
There are no Federal, State or local laws that I am aware of that would require it. Not doing so would not cause you to be considered trespassing. Staying when you have been asked to leave would be considered trespassing.
No the LEO can not legally ask for the paperwork unless ATF or TTB. Also that this does NOT result in an automatic arrest. Yes you CAN get arrested or detained or hassled but does NOT automatically put you in jail. That was the comparison I was trying to make with tickets, sure you can get one, but getting pulled over does NOT automatically mean you get one.
With LEO they generally use discretion, common sense and we still have that thing in the US called "innocent until proven guilty". So if there is NO PC to suspect that I am doing anything illegal, because simply having a silencer is not breaking the law, it will usually end there.
This is very similar to open carry when some one calls the cops. They have NO right to detain you simply for having a gun. They also have to have PC that you are committing a crime. This has been proved in court even in OR. Again just because I am in possession of a silencer does NOT mean I am committing a crime. Last time I checked the 4th Amendment still was valid in OR.
It's just like homicide.. Killing a person is illegal, regardless of reason. The ORS provides an exception, but it's also an affirmative defense- unles you provide proof you are exempt from the law, you will be charged an convicted.
A tax stamp saying XYZ Trust owns a suppressor doesn't say that I can have it, so then I'm assuming I must carry my Trust papers or Articles of Incorporation if my Corp owns it?
Conflict of laws here. Privacy act vs. state law. Privacy act says that no one except IRS (and ATF for NFA stuff) may legally have access to your information without your permission. State law says silencers are illegal unless registered, which implies that you need to show proof of registration to avoid being arrested.
So it's illegal not to show registration, but also illegal for the officer to demand it.
Of course, the solution here is to realize that a Form 4 or 1 is pretty specific and barely contains more information on it than your car registration. Just show it to them and don't be a jerk.
It is kind of a weird issue, I agree. You might even be able to make a federal case out of it. Unless Oregon will accept something other than the ATF tax stamped form as proof of legal registration. Possibly a copy of the 4473 if you transferred the item on form 4. Form 1 you wouldn't have that option since it didn't also need a 4473.