No ATF form, no shooting?

[captqc]

This case reminds me of a wise old saying "ignorance can be cured with education, stupid is forever!"

 

[Ranb]

I attended a club meeting yesterday and was allowed to talk about the problem. It was a bizarre experience to say the least. As I was talking, the offending RO interrupted me to claim that 90% of what I was saying was false, that I had refused to show him my ATF form 4 (I have none, they are all form 1 cans) that I only had one rifle at the range, (I had three suppressed rifles and a case of handguns) and that instead of supplying me with the statute I was in violation of as promised he talked to some guys at a gun store and they told him I was required to show copies of the forms when asked. I was stunned that he was willing to remain so ignorant instead of making a small effort to educate himself on the law.

In the middle of all this one of the club members used his tablet to look up the BATFE FAQ that said silencer owners were required to show their proof of registration to the ATF and it was recommended that they have copies with them. I also had a copy of the various laws including the appropriate portions of Titles 26 and 27 as well as CFR's parts 478 and 479 with me but didn't have a chance to do anything with them except hold them up in the air while I spoke to emphasize that we have to obey the law, not gun shop rumors. The general consensus of the board was that silencer owners should not be singled out to prove they are in compliance with the law and that no one should be required to show proof of registration to any range officer.

As I had hoped, this was a range officer problem and not a club problem. The RO claimed he was not going to work at the range as RO anymore due to another issue. I noticed he is not on the schedule for June either. Since no one has anything to gain by knowing the name of the club or the RO, I will keep them to myself.

I was asked to put together a presentation at the next safety meeting to educate the staff on registration requirements.

Ranb

 

[adipose]

Ranb,
Good for you taking the education route and addressing the club. You brought up a good point to all of us that handle NFA items.

I belong to 2 clubs and at both of them; the range officers (who act proffessionally for the most part); told me at times, they will ask for a copy of as form; if they see a machinegun, SBR or silencer; especially if it is someone they have never seen before.

I also sometimes shoot in the back country; so I always carry my paperwork (A laminated double-sided copy; which also says copy on it) with any of my NFA items.

 

[telero]

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not from Washington. I couldn't find the specific Washington laws on silencers, but the Oregon ones are pretty clear. So the comments I make likely won't apply in Washington. There were some people from Oregon that responded, so this is mostly for them.

...ONLY a ATF agent can demand to see the paperwork "Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request." Period!

If you're on private property (including a range) and the owner or manager wants to verify that your NFA item is legally possessed, that's their perogative. If you don't want to show them, fine. But if they ask you to leave and you don't you are tresspassing.

+1
if they dont have an ATF badge just tell them to pound sand, i tell cops to pound sand, there is no PC because they are not illegal.

Chunky Milk: It appears from your location information that you are in Oregon. Silencers are illegal in Oregon. Possessing one is PC to question you.

I would show them to an ATF person (of course) or to a LEO, but not to a range officer. None of his/her business.

You'd definitely need to show the papers to LEO if you are in Oregon. Range officer too if it's private property and requested, you may be tresspassing if you don't show. Private/membership club -- you might have a valid argument if you have a contract with them. It would depend on the details.

I would never show anyone my private tax documents.

I would ignore them and keep shooting.

If you're in Oregon and it's an LEO asking, you'd better show them.

This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers.

Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Firearms | ATF

In red is the problem with your statement. NO ONE but the ATF is allowed to ask for your documents. They are a tax form and NO range officer or LEO (other then ATF) has a legal right to see them any more then you would show them your tax return. Yes you can choose to willingly show them if you want.

That's only at the Federal level. In Washington you may not have a state law making silencers illegal, but in Oregon there is.

It's not my statement. The police will ask if they feel like it. Should one resist their request, or simply say, sure...here is a copy, and would you like to dump a couple mags
I understand the letter of the law, my point is why make a big deal when it's easy to bring a copy of your approval form. I do. In fact, the one and only time I've ever been to the English Pit...All in all it was a positive experience because I 'chose' not to be a dick about it when I could have been.

My $0.02

Seems like you're in Oregon, but shoot in Washington at times...and you have the right attitude about it.

Now, for anyone that feels like jumping on me for saying that silencers are illegal in Oregon and want to dispute that point:

ORS 166.172
(1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

That is where silencers are illegal in Oregon.

Of course there's more to it than that:

ORS 166.172
(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the persons immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

So, there is an exception to the section making silencers illegal. Just so happens that the only way you can prove your silencer is registered under federal law is with your tax stamped form.

And yes, you can be arrested if you don't have your paperwork with you, even if you happen to have the correct paperwork, maybe at home in the safe or something. It will be hassle, but you'll be OK after the initial arrest/charge.

ORS 166.172
(4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law.

 

[stmcelroy]

How many officers in Oregon are going to arrest and do all the paperwork associated with an arrest just so that a citizen can bring in paperwork at a later date to prove they can own something?

Serious question.

 

[telero]

If you don't have the paperwork and are being a jackass about it or are otherwise being sketchy, they might. If they think you're lying for some reason about having the paperwork somewhere else, there is no reason for them to not arrest you.

The rest of the statute is:

ORS 166.172
(2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.

Why wouldn't an officer arrest you for a felony?

Also, you probably wouldn't be bringing in the paperwork to the police later. At that point you'd be talking to the prosecutor.

 

[stmcelroy]

If you don't have the paperwork and are being a jackass about it or are otherwise being sketchy, they might. If they think you're lying for some reason about having the paperwork somewhere else, there is no reason for them to not arrest you.

The rest of the statute is:


Why wouldn't an officer arrest you for a felony?

Also, you probably wouldn't be bringing in the paperwork to the police later. At that point you'd be talking to the prosecutor.

They may. But I've never heard of an instance where anybody was arrested for not having their paperwork.

 

[308]

Now, for anyone that feels like jumping on me for saying that silencers are illegal in Oregon and want to dispute that point:

ORS 166.172 (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

That is where silencers are illegal in Oregon.

That suggests "knowing" that you are in illegal possession of those items, and who wouldn't...as if, "I didn't know that was a FA and this is a suppressor"
It's not illegal to own those items, just illegal to own them illegally...lol

 

[telero]

They may. But I've never heard of an instance where anybody was arrested for not having their paperwork.

I haven't heard of it either, but most people probably keep their paperwork with them. If they believed you that you had your paperwork, maybe they would give you some time to make it available. If you didn't in some amount of time, maybe then they'd come find you. It's all speculation unless an LEO chimes in.

 

[telero]

That suggests "knowing" that you are in illegal possession of those items, and who wouldn't...as if, "I didn't know that was a FA and this is a suppressor"
It's not illegal to own those items, just illegal to own them illegally...lol

Well, if you're caught using one of those items it would be tough to argue you were not knowingly in possession. If your friend has a silencer with him and it's not registered you may not be charged if you could convincingly argue that you didn't know it was there (maybe in a range bag?) or not legally possessed (didn't know the friend didn't have the tax stamp).

Illegal with exception. I think that's the easier way to write the law, but more confusing to read/interpret.

 

[Nwcid]

Telero it is very OBVIOUS that you know nothing about NFA or the OR or WA laws dealing with them. I tried quoting back on your post but it is so messed up with you even listing wrong ORS #.

It is NOT illegal in OR or WA to be in possession of a legally registered silencer. It IS illegal to possess unregistered ones in ANY state.

NOTHING in either state grants power to "Local" LEO's to look at private TAX documents. A range officer, never. Yes if you are on private property then they can ask you to leave. You can also do a RANB did and educate and look what happened to the RO that attempted to overstep his lack of authority. Its like when a mall cop thinks they have powers they do not............

Yes showing your FormX is the easiest and best way to show that you are in legal possession. I am not saying I would not show it, not that I have ever been asked. The other problem is discrimination, why are they ONLY checking NFA and not everything?

Lets start having LEO check each weapon serial number when we go to the gun range. They could be stolen.

Lets make sure your old enough, lets see some ID.

Lets check your criminal records to see if you have ever had a drug conviction, or do a quick urine test to make sure you have not been doing any drugs.


You know, If you have nothing to hide, it just takes a little time. IT'S NO BIG DEAL

 

[phatdoughnut]

Telero it is very OBVIOUS that you know nothing about NFA or the OR or WA laws dealing with them. I tried quoting back on your post but it is so messed up with you even listing wrong ORS #.

It is NOT illegal in OR or WA to be in possession of a legally registered silencer. It IS illegal to possess unregistered ones in ANY state.

NOTHING in either state grants power to "Local" LEO's to look at private TAX documents. A range officer, never. Yes if you are on private property then they can ask you to leave. You can also do a RANB did and educate and look what happened to the RO that attempted to overstep his lack of authority. Its like when a mall cop thinks they have powers they do not............

Yes showing your FormX is the easiest and best way to show that you are in legal possession. I am not saying I would not show it, not that I have ever been asked. The other problem is discrimination, why are they ONLY checking NFA and not everything?

Lets start having LEO check each weapon serial number when we go to the gun range. They could be stolen.

Lets make sure your old enough, lets see some ID.

Lets check your criminal records to see if you have ever had a drug conviction, or do a quick urine test to make sure you have not been doing any drugs.


You know, If you have nothing to hide, it just takes a little time. IT'S NO BIG DEAL

It's for the kids.

 

[telero]

Telero it is very OBVIOUS that you know nothing about NFA or the OR or WA laws dealing with them. I tried quoting back on your post but it is so messed up with you even listing wrong ORS #.

I absolutely know the law in Oregon, and I posted the statutes. I do NOT know the Washington law, as I stated. It's very obvious that you can't comprehend.
By the way, I got the statutes from https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors166.html. If you feel they are wrong, contact the state.

It is NOT illegal in OR or WA to be in possession of a legally registered silencer. It IS illegal to possess unregistered ones in ANY state.

I can't track down the WA laws regarding firearms, but from how I understand through reading other people's posts (here and on other sites), there is no state law against possessing a silencer in WA. There used to be a law restricting use, but not possession. If there is no state law against possession, then possession is allowed.

I never said that it was illegal to be in possession of a legally registered silencer. Federally it is not. (By the way, the ATF checks state laws before issuing stamps)

I'll clean the Oregon statute up for you so you can try to comprehend it. Here are the two relevent subsections.
166.272
(1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a...firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses ANY...firearms silencer. (emphasis added)
(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person's immediate possession documentation showing that the...firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

NOTHING in either state grants power to "Local" LEO's to look at private TAX documents. A range officer, never. Yes if you are on private property then they can ask you to leave. You can also do a RANB did and educate and look what happened to the RO that attempted to overstep his lack of authority. Its like when a mall cop thinks they have powers they do not............

Subsection 3 of 166.272 does grant local LEO the power to look at your tax stamped form from the ATF. Well, maybe it doesn't grant them power to, but how else are you supposed to prove that your item is registered as required under federal law, unless you show them?

Yes showing your FormX is the easiest and best way to show that you are in legal possession. I am not saying I would not show it, not that I have ever been asked.

In Oregon it is the only way. And if you don't show it you can be arrested.

The other problem is discrimination, why are they ONLY checking NFA and not everything?

Are you refering to ranges in this case? If so, I'd imagine it's liability and publicity thing. If you owned a range would you want the news talking about the huge ATF bust that went down on your property, at your business?

 

[Nwcid]

You win. Keep quoting half the laws with the wrong ORS # I will continue to legally use my NFA items. I can prove lots of things are illegal by only quoting half the law.

 

[telero]

You win. Keep quoting half the laws with the wrong ORS # I will continue to legally use my NFA items. I can prove lots of things are illegal by only quoting half the law.

You still seem to have a comprehension problem. How do I help you with that? I'm being serious here.

You appear to be in Washington (per your location information on your profile). Point out where I ever said anything about silencers being illegal in Washington. I never said anything about having to show local LEO proof of legal registration while in Washington.

What is it you find wrong with the ORS numbers I quoted? Since the conversation was relevent to silencers I removed the machinegun, SBS, and SBR language to make it more clear, but I in no way changed the context of the laws.

Keep using your NFA items, but if you bring them to Oregon and you refuse to show your ATF tax stamped forms to an Oregon LEO and are subsequently arrested, don't say I didn't try to help you.

 

[coctailer]

Talero, you are spreading mis-information. You need to read and learn.

 

[The B]

What? Maybe I didn't read everything? I'm taking telero's side on this one- the way the ORS is written, you pretty much have to be in possession of your "tax documents" and you pretty much have to show them to cops. Yea, you can NOT, if you want, but you can expect to be arrested.

What be I missing?

 

[telero]

Talero, you are spreading mis-information. You need to read and learn.

I did read. That's how I learned. I also referenced the actual law. If you find something to condradict what I say, please reference it. I want to know if I'm wrong, not just have you telling me the equivalent of "nuh-uh."

 

[Nwcid]

I did read. That's how I learned.

I think that might be the big problem here. So I will try one more time even though this thread has gone so far off track.

How many NFA items do you own? IF you even own any, how many interactions have you had with ANY LEO? Please tell us about any FACTUAL information where the things you say will happen have happened, not just trying to quote law.

Since we are talking about "reading" laws lets start there. What does the law say about diving over the posted speed limit? Now do you get pulled over EVERY time you speed? Then EVERY time do you get a ticket? I am sure your answer is no, because that is how it actually works vs what the law actually says.

How about this. What does the law say about carrying concealed? How many times have you interacted with ANY LEO and had them actually ask to see your permit?

I drive a lot, so I speed a lot, I get pulled over a few times a year, I carry all the time. Very seldom do I get a ticket. In 17 years I have been asked if I have my permit several times and only been asked to show it one time and the funny thing it was 2 weeks ago.

Basically with NFA it "works" like this. You are doing your thing, no big deal. IF you happen to come into contact with an LEO again generally no big deal if nothing else is going on. If you come into contact with an LEO while you are doing something "questionable" at the time, and you have a bad attitude you may have a problem. To say that "If you dont show your papers you will go to jail" is complete BS, this is not Nazi Germany..............

I was buying, owning and USING silencers in WA even before our law changed a couple years ago. Even then and having contact with LEO's NEVER was I asked to show paperwork and NEVER did I have a bad interaction because that is NOT how it works.

 

[coctailer]

I did read. That's how I learned. I also referenced the actual law. If you find something to condradict what I say, please reference it. I want to know if I'm wrong, not just have you telling me the equivalent of "nuh-uh."

304-616-4500
This is the number for the NFA branch of the ATF. You are free to do your homework with people that get PAID to educate.
The interpretation that you gleaned from your reading got a bit mis-wired.

I will say, please stop talking and start listening. Some people in this thread are experts on the subject.

ETA: Nwcid's is better at explaining stuff on the keyboard than I am. Good post above.