No ATF form, no shooting?

[coctailer]

Talero, come to the Portland gun show this weekend and I can explain how it works in person. I'll have a bunch of silencers there for ya to check out.

 

[PDXSparky]

Talero, come to the Portland gun show this weekend and I can explain how it works in person. I'll have a bunch of silencers there for ya to check out.

Which are completely lawful to own and use in Oregon as long as you have the correct tax stamp.

 

[The B]

I think that might be the big problem here. So I will try one more time even though this thread has gone so far off track.

How many NFA items do you own? IF you even own any, how many interactions have you had with ANY LEO? Please tell us about any FACTUAL information where the things you say will happen have happened, not just trying to quote law.

Since we are talking about "reading" laws lets start there. What does the law say about diving over the posted speed limit? Now do you get pulled over EVERY time you speed? Then EVERY time do you get a ticket? I am sure your answer is no, because that is how it actually works vs what the law actually says.

How about this. What does the law say about carrying concealed? How many times have you interacted with ANY LEO and had them actually ask to see your permit?

I drive a lot, so I speed a lot, I get pulled over a few times a year, I carry all the time. Very seldom do I get a ticket. In 17 years I have been asked if I have my permit several times and only been asked to show it one time and the funny thing it was 2 weeks ago.

Basically with NFA it "works" like this. You are doing your thing, no big deal. IF you happen to come into contact with an LEO again generally no big deal if nothing else is going on. If you come into contact with an LEO while you are doing something "questionable" at the time, and you have a bad attitude you may have a problem. To say that "If you dont show your papers you will go to jail" is complete BS, this is not Nazi Germany..............

I was buying, owning and USING silencers in WA even before our law changed a couple years ago. Even then and having contact with LEO's NEVER was I asked to show paperwork and NEVER did I have a bad interaction because that is NOT how it works.

304-616-4500
This is the number for the NFA branch of the ATF. You are free to do your homework with people that get PAID to educate.
The interpretation that you gleaned from your reading got a bit mis-wired.

I will say, please stop talking and start listening. Some people in this thread are experts on the subject.

ETA: Nwcid's is better at explaining stuff on the keyboard than I am. Good post above.

You guys must be homies.

Nwcid's comments above is one of the most betarded legal "explainations" I've ever seen on an internet gun board. You kidding me? The law is the bubbleguming law, bro. You can throw it to the wind and not carry your Form if you want, but don't argue with someone about the legality under the ORS.

Holy bubblegum.

 

[telero]

Nwcid and coctailer. I asked for fact and got anecdote.

Nwcid: you did a great job proving my point with your example of getting pulled over for speeding and getting a ticket. Crime -> punishment. Comparing a driving infraction to a felony is a pretty big difference though.

As far as you being asked to show your license and then doing so, you're proving my point again. I'm in Oregon, so I'm citing Oregon law -- I don't know how it is in Washington. In Oregon, ORS 166.292 (2) states: "Failure of a person who carries a concealed handgun also to carry a concealed handgun license is prima facie evidence that the person does not have such a license." Carrying a concealed weapon without a license here is a Class A misdemeanor. If you're convicted of a misdemeanor, you'd have to wait 4 years to get your concealed license back. But back to the part where you proved my point again. You were required to show your permit and you did.


coctailer: you can call the ATF all you want, but what I'm talking about is a state issue, not a federal one.



I never said that failing to show your papers would absolutely get you arrested, but it certainly could, and that is my point. (In Oregon)

 

[telero]

Talero, come to the Portland gun show this weekend and I can explain how it works in person. I'll have a bunch of silencers there for ya to check out.

Which are completely lawful to own and use in Oregon as long as you have the correct tax stamp.

coctailer: If you had anything to explain to me I'd be all ears, but I'd rather you do it here so that everyone can gain a little knowledge. We could start a new thread if you want.


PDXSparky: Exactly! But you also have to be willing to prove it to an LEO (In Oregon).

 

[Nwcid]

The whole point has been missed. Done.

 

[telero]

The whole point has been missed. Done.

Yes, I think you missed my point.

 

[jbett98]

I missed a lot of points.
Let's say I am driving down the road with my select fire AR-15 SBR with a suppressor. I have all of the legal tax stamps in my possession.
I get pulled over for a traffic violation. The LEO spies the weapon on my back seat.
He asks if it's mine. I say "yes it is."
He then asks if I have any proof that it is legal for me to have it in my possession.
I respond with "yes sir I do, but I am not going to show you any documents to back up my claim of legal ownership."
"You are going to just have to take my word for it."
What are the chances that the LEO is going to let me drive away?

 

[stmcelroy]

I missed a lot of points.
Let's say I am driving down the road with my select fire AR-15 SBR with a suppressor. I have all of the legal tax stamps in my possession.
I get pulled over for a traffic violation. The LEO spies the weapon on my back seat.
He asks if it's mine. I say "yes it is."
He then asks if I have any proof that it is legal for me to have it in my possession.
I respond with "yes sir I do, but I am not going to show you any documents to back up my claim of legal ownership."
"You are going to just have to take my word for it."
What are the chances that the LEO is going to let me drive away?

You're screwed because you acted like a moron and are questioning his authority. Done more respectfully snd you'd probably be fine.

 

[FE427TP]

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not from Washington. I couldn't find the specific Washington laws on silencers, but the Oregon ones are pretty clear. So the comments I make likely won't apply in Washington. There were some people from Oregon that responded, so this is mostly for them.



If you're on private property (including a range) and the owner or manager wants to verify that your NFA item is legally possessed, that's their perogative. If you don't want to show them, fine. But if they ask you to leave and you don't you are tresspassing.



Chunky Milk: It appears from your location information that you are in Oregon. Silencers are illegal in Oregon. Possessing one is PC to question you.



You'd definitely need to show the papers to LEO if you are in Oregon. Range officer too if it's private property and requested, you may be tresspassing if you don't show. Private/membership club -- you might have a valid argument if you have a contract with them. It would depend on the details.



If you're in Oregon and it's an LEO asking, you'd better show them.





That's only at the Federal level. In Washington you may not have a state law making silencers illegal, but in Oregon there is.




Seems like you're in Oregon, but shoot in Washington at times...and you have the right attitude about it.

Now, for anyone that feels like jumping on me for saying that silencers are illegal in Oregon and want to dispute that point:


That is where silencers are illegal in Oregon.

Of course there's more to it than that:


So, there is an exception to the section making silencers illegal. Just so happens that the only way you can prove your silencer is registered under federal law is with your tax stamped form.

And yes, you can be arrested if you don't have your paperwork with you, even if you happen to have the correct paperwork, maybe at home in the safe or something. It will be hassle, but you'll be OK after the initial arrest/charge.

SPOT ON! Thanks for replying with cites and proof repeatedly...

 

[Tornado-Technologies]

Wow,I'm a little surprised at some of the responses here. I'll do my best to try and set everyone straight. I'm not a lawyer, but I feel I have a pretty good interpretation of the relevant statutes and have been working in the industry for a long time. Not saying any ones is right or wrong, I just want to set the record straight.
Ok, now lets lay this all out. Here's is the relevant part of the statute, you can't pull sections out on there own, it all needs to b read in context as one piece.

OR 166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

(2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.

(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person's immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

(4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. [1989 c.839 §13a; 1997 c.749 §8; 1997 c.798 §1]

I'm going to try and get the answer across as a number of questions and answers. Here goes:

Are silencers illegal in Oregon
No, and never have been as far as I'm aware. From reading the relevant section of the law, one might assume so, but you have to read it all as one piece. Where is states "affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. ", this doesn't mean you get arrested and charged, go to court and have to prove they're registered to be acquitted. This is legal terminology similar to saying the the section doesn't apply to NFA items that are registered as per federal law.

Are you required to show you NFA paperwork to and ATF agent.
Yes, you are required to show proof of registration to an ATF or TTB agent.

Are you required to show NFA paperwork to a police officer in Oregon?
No you are not. That being said, a Police officer may arrest you for unlawful possession if you can not show that the item is registered pursuant to Federal law. He may also charge you with the same offense. We tell all our customers to have a copy of their NFA paperwork stored with the items and with you when using the item. Leave the originals in a safe place. With the acceptance of digital documents, it's my opinion that a .pdf or .jpg scan on a laptop or cell phone would also suffice.

What should I do if I have a copy of my paperwork and an Oregon Police officer tried to arrest me?
I highly recommend not preaching the law to them, but carrying a copy of the relevant statute to politely show them is useful, as well as having the phone number for the ATF in Portland. (503) 331-7830. Ask them to please call a supervisor before arresting you. If they still arrest you, then it's time to shut up and ask for a lawyer. The officer in question is a moron, but if you sit tight it will be sorted in due course. Do not, repeat do not resist. Remain calm.

Are you required to show FA paperwork to a range officer.
There are no Federal, State or local laws that I am aware of that would require it. Not doing so would not cause you to be considered trespassing. Staying when you have been asked to leave would be considered trespassing.

 

[Nwcid]

What I was trying to say all along and obviously not well.

No the LEO can not legally ask for the paperwork unless ATF or TTB. Also that this does NOT result in an automatic arrest. Yes you CAN get arrested or detained or hassled but does NOT automatically put you in jail. That was the comparison I was trying to make with tickets, sure you can get one, but getting pulled over does NOT automatically mean you get one.

In all the LEO interactions I have had basically go along these lines. LEO "Are those silencers". Me "Yep". LEO "Are they properly registered"? Me "Yes they are". LEO "Ok". Depending on location LEO "Cool can I try them"? Me "Well of course you can".

With LEO they generally use discretion, common sense and we still have that thing in the US called "innocent until proven guilty". So if there is NO PC to suspect that I am doing anything illegal, because simply having a silencer is not breaking the law, it will usually end there. On top of that the LEO may even know he has no legal right to ask for TAX forms. YES I read the ORS several times and they COULD throw me in jail, even with my paperwork if the LEO is ignorant. But to say if I don't have my paperwork on my I WILL go to jail is NOT a fact, just a possibility.

This is very similar to open carry when some one calls the cops. They have NO right to detain you simply for having a gun. They also have to have PC that you are committing a crime. This has been proved in court even in OR. Again just because I am in possession of a silencer does NOT mean I am committing a crime. Last time I checked the 4th Amendment still was valid in OR.

 

[telero]

Are silencers illegal in Oregon
No, and never have been as far as I'm aware. From reading the relevant section of the law, one might assume so, but you have to read it all as one piece. Where is states "affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. ", this doesn't mean you get arrested and charged, go to court and have to prove they're registered to be acquitted. This is legal terminology similar to saying the the section doesn't apply to NFA items that are registered as per federal law.

That's subsection 4 that is the affirmative defense subsection. Basically, if you didn't have your paperwork or refused to show it and you were subsequently arrested, it's your way to have charges dropped after the arrest.

Are you required to show NFA paperwork to a police officer in Oregon?
No you are not. That being said, a Police officer may arrest you for unlawful possession if you can not show that the item is registered pursuant to Federal law. He may also charge you with the same offense. We tell all our customers to have a copy of their NFA paperwork stored with the items and with you when using the item. Leave the originals in a safe place. With the acceptance of digital documents, it's my opinion that a .pdf or .jpg scan on a laptop or cell phone would also suffice.

This is where subsection 3 comes into play. You can't legally be arrested for possession if you have your paperwork and show it. Unless there is another way to prove that it is registered as required under federal law, you'll need to show your tax stamped approved form.

What should I do if I have a copy of my paperwork and an Oregon Police officer tried to arrest me?
I highly recommend not preaching the law to them, but carrying a copy of the relevant statute to politely show them is useful, as well as having the phone number for the ATF in Portland. (503) 331-7830. Ask them to please call a supervisor before arresting you. If they still arrest you, then it's time to shut up and ask for a lawyer. The officer in question is a moron, but if you sit tight it will be sorted in due course. Do not, repeat do not resist. Remain calm.

Exactly this. Ask them to check the statute and ask for a supervisor.

Are you required to show FA paperwork to a range officer.
There are no Federal, State or local laws that I am aware of that would require it. Not doing so would not cause you to be considered trespassing. Staying when you have been asked to leave would be considered trespassing.

Exactly what I said earlier.

So you've reiterated every point I made. My initial reason for bringing the wording of the law up was because several people claimed vehemently that you don't have to show your tax stamped approved forms to anyone but the ATF. This is true, but there could be consequences if you choose not to, including being arrested.

 

[telero]

No the LEO can not legally ask for the paperwork unless ATF or TTB. Also that this does NOT result in an automatic arrest. Yes you CAN get arrested or detained or hassled but does NOT automatically put you in jail. That was the comparison I was trying to make with tickets, sure you can get one, but getting pulled over does NOT automatically mean you get one.

In Oregon, the LEO can legally ask for proof of legal federal registration. That doesn't mean he specifically asked for your tax stamp approved ATF forms, but what else is there?

With LEO they generally use discretion, common sense and we still have that thing in the US called "innocent until proven guilty". So if there is NO PC to suspect that I am doing anything illegal, because simply having a silencer is not breaking the law, it will usually end there.

This is where you are wrong. In Oregon, the way the law is written, simply possessing the silencer is PC because possession of a silencer is illegal. It's up to you to show that you are legally possessing it either before or after a possible arrest. Innocent until proven guilty is what happens in court. Getting arrested is what happens when an officer has enough evidence to make the arrest. Not showing that you have the correct federal registration is that evidence.

This is very similar to open carry when some one calls the cops. They have NO right to detain you simply for having a gun. They also have to have PC that you are committing a crime. This has been proved in court even in OR. Again just because I am in possession of a silencer does NOT mean I am committing a crime. Last time I checked the 4th Amendment still was valid in OR.

This is not the same thing. Open carry is not explicitly illegal. Having a silencer is. It's more similar to concealed carry. Concealed carry is illegal, unless you have a permit.

 

[The B]

It's just like homicide.. Killing a person is illegal, regardless of reason. The ORS provides an exception, but it's also an affirmative defense- unles you provide proof you are exempt from the law, you will be charged an convicted.

 

[stmcelroy]

A tax stamp saying XYZ Trust owns a suppressor doesn't say that I can have it, so then I'm assuming I must carry my Trust papers or Articles of Incorporation if my Corp owns it?

 

[PromptCritical]

Conflict of laws here. Privacy act vs. state law. Privacy act says that no one except IRS (and ATF for NFA stuff) may legally have access to your information without your permission. State law says silencers are illegal unless registered, which implies that you need to show proof of registration to avoid being arrested.

So it's illegal not to show registration, but also illegal for the officer to demand it.

Of course, the solution here is to realize that a Form 4 or 1 is pretty specific and barely contains more information on it than your car registration. Just show it to them and don't be a jerk.

Don't even get me started on what a stupid idea it is to treat SSN's like secret passwords. Yes folks, you should make your passwords out of multiple characters and include numbers, punctuation and case changes, and change it frequently, but we're going to lock up your entire cache of personal information with a 9-digit number you can't change. Great idea.

 

[telero]

It's just like homicide.. Killing a person is illegal, regardless of reason. The ORS provides an exception, but it's also an affirmative defense- unles you provide proof you are exempt from the law, you will be charged an convicted.

I would change "you will be charged and convicted" to "you could be charged and convicted." Without enough evidence the police aren't even going to arrest you. But if there's enough evidence gathered later and the prosecutor wants to take it further, then you would be arrested. And if there isn't enough evidence of a justified self-defense situation, or even an unjustified homicide (murder), they wouldn't arrest/charge you either. Being that there isn't a statue of limitations on homicide, they wouldn't necessarily just forget about it either if more evidence showed up later.

A tax stamp saying XYZ Trust owns a suppressor doesn't say that I can have it, so then I'm assuming I must carry my Trust papers or Articles of Incorporation if my Corp owns it?

That's how I would understand it as well.

Conflict of laws here. Privacy act vs. state law. Privacy act says that no one except IRS (and ATF for NFA stuff) may legally have access to your information without your permission. State law says silencers are illegal unless registered, which implies that you need to show proof of registration to avoid being arrested.

So it's illegal not to show registration, but also illegal for the officer to demand it.

Of course, the solution here is to realize that a Form 4 or 1 is pretty specific and barely contains more information on it than your car registration. Just show it to them and don't be a jerk.

It is kind of a weird issue, I agree. You might even be able to make a federal case out of it. Unless Oregon will accept something other than the ATF tax stamped form as proof of legal registration. Possibly a copy of the 4473 if you transferred the item on form 4. Form 1 you wouldn't have that option since it didn't also need a 4473.

 

[PromptCritical]

It is kind of a weird issue, I agree. You might even be able to make a federal case out of it. Unless Oregon will accept something other than the ATF tax stamped form as proof of legal registration. Possibly a copy of the 4473 if you transferred the item on form 4. Form 1 you wouldn't have that option since it didn't also need a 4473.

Do you really want to have to get ANOTHER form to carry around?

An officer cannot arrest you once you have presented the stamped form. Just show it to them.

 

[telero]

I wasn't actually advocating carrying another form. I agree, just show the form and be on your way. Some people don't like that idea. Personally, showing someone that I paid $200 to buy a stamp and transfer an NFA item is hardly a big deal. The fact that we have to pay that tax and register in the first place is the bigger concern.