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No ATF form, no shooting?

Discussion in 'NFA Weapon Discussion' started by Ranb, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. Ranb

    Ranb Belfair, WA Active Member

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    For only the second time since 2002 when I made my first silencer, I was asked for proof of registration. This was the first time I was asked in WA State. Today was one of those rare days when I forgot to bring my ATF form 1 copies with me to the range. I was told I couldn’t shoot unless I showed proof of registration. While I have no problem with proving registration of a silencer, I don't like the way it was done today.

    The range officer approached me after I fired a round and asked to see my registration forms. I told him I didn't have them with me today and offered to show my driver's license and the engraving on the form 1 silencers. He said it wasn't good enough. I told him I was not required by federal law to show the forms to anyone but the BATFE and that state law and club rules also did not require it. He disagreed with me and claimed federal law required me to carry copies with me. I told him he was wrong and asked him for the statute. I ended up giving him my card and he said he would show me the statute. I’m not holding my breath over this one.

    The RO went on and on about how he was a former LEO and told a story about some guys in CA who had their NFA firearms seized. He then asked where I worked (PSNS). He also claimed asking for proof of legal ownership of firearms was at the range officer's discretion (according to the club rules it is not, although the SOP says the RO's word is law). I thought he was being rude and wondered what was going to happen when he asked for proof of legal ownership of shotguns or revolvers that I bring to the range. I have no legal documents proving ownership of some of my firearms.

    Anyone else have this problem?

    Ranb
     
  2. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    I would never show anyone my private tax documents.

    I would ignore them and keep shooting.
     
  3. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    WARRENT? or BADGE or the hwy.
     
  4. Ranb

    Ranb Belfair, WA Active Member

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    The club is on private property as far as I know, so their rules or I hit the road. I have never gone to a range without learning firearm restrictions in advance. Hearing about unwritten rules is not something I like to do after I arrive at the range.

    I heard back from one of the club officers and have been invited to speak to them about silencers and the benefits. I will keep the name of the club confidential until this is resolved. So far I like what I am hearing from them.

    Ranb
     
    PBinWA and (deleted member) like this.
  5. nastybynature

    nastybynature ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Active Member

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    ^^This^^

    But unfortunately you were right when you said it is private property and they get to make the rules. Also they all seem to have enough business these days that even if you were to contact ownership about it, you would likely not get any kind of response that would make you feel better. Kind of a lose, lose for you. Makes me wish I had 100+ acres so I did not have to worry about such things. Many times the types we have to deal with when it comes to our freedoms, have authority/power trip issues and it becomes a who has the bigger bubblegum contest. All I could say is I would not go back.
     
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  6. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like you have a real opportunity here to do good
     
  7. Ranb

    Ranb Belfair, WA Active Member

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    Oh yes. I never skip a chance to educate people on the benefits of silencer use. :)

    Ranb
     
  8. Benny503

    Benny503 Grants Pass Well-Known Member

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    Actually that is one of the rule here in GP also. It written on their range policies. All I did give the RO a stack of my junk papers and tell him sore through it to pick out what he want to see :) too many paper works these days :-?
     
  9. mortar maggot

    mortar maggot western wa Active Member

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    sounds like the RO was ignorant of the laws in several areas or was on a powertrip, either way go educate those folks.

    Thanks for all of the suppressor and SBR education of the politicians that you have done.
     
  10. teflon97239

    teflon97239 Portland, OR Well-Known Member

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    I keep my original stamped form in a secure location at home and a photocopy folded up in the gear bag. Just to be anal, I also scanned and printed a 2-sided copy about the size of a playing card and laminated it with clear packing tape.

    Glad you brought this up. It gave me an opportunity to pre-evaluate my own policies regarding how I might respond to similar interactions - depending on:

    - Who owns the property.
    - Is the other guy an official rep of the owner or just a nosey *sshat?
    - LEO? Methhead with some other agenda?
    - Do I flash a tiny copy of a document at arm's length just to prove I have it?
    - Let a complete stranger peruse something with my SSN on it?
    - Tell them to go get ATF to come monitor compliance with their rules?
     
  11. oknow

    oknow amboy wa. Well-Known Member

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    "former LEO and told a story about some guys in CA"



    say's it all
     
  12. captqc

    captqc Tigard Silver Supporter Silver Supporter

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    Sounds like the Range Officer was on a power trip. That club may have a rule but if so why didn't he just say that in the first place. ONLY a ATF agent can demand to see the paperwork "Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request." Period!
     
  13. Chunky Milk

    Chunky Milk Springtucky Member

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    +1


    if they dont have an ATF badge just tell them to pound sand, i tell cops to pound sand, there is no PC because they are not illegal.
     
  14. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?

    Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.

    Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Firearms | ATF


    Just make copies and shove them in the range box, gun case, whatever and you can make the range nazi happy and go about your day with little to no frustration because some douche goes on a power trip.
     
  15. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    In red is the problem with your statement. NO ONE but the ATF is allowed to ask for your documents. They are a tax form and NO range officer or LEO (other then ATF) has a legal right to see them any more then you would show them your tax return. Yes you can choose to willingly show them if you want.
     
  16. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    No RO has ever asked me or even noticed (on a rifle) that I even was using a suppressor. I carry complete copies and normally the one specific to the weapon in the grip/container.

    I would show them to an ATF person (of course) or to a LEO, but not to a range officer. None of his/her business.
     
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  17. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Just tell them your a CIA hit man, and if you show them the papers, you will have no choice but to make them disappear afterwards.
     
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  18. phatdoughnut

    phatdoughnut The Gorge Active Member

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    Just tell him you are a criminal and you just acquired the items on the black market.
     
  19. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    It's not my statement. The police will ask if they feel like it. Should one resist their request, or simply say, sure...here is a copy, and would you like to dump a couple mags :)
    I understand the letter of the law, my point is why make a big deal when it's easy to bring a copy of your approval form. I do. In fact, the one and only time I've ever been to the English Pit, the little gal running the show had a cow about my suppressors. I let her finger phuk my paperwork and we all went back to our business after which several guys came over and we talked about NFA items and how one can obtain them. All in all it was a positive experience because I 'chose' not to be a dick about it when I could have been.

    My $0.02
     
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  20. stmcelroy

    stmcelroy Madras, OR Well-Known Member

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    When the law first changed back to allow use in Washington Clark Rifles down in Clark County required you to show Form 1/4.

    After a bunch of complaining and discussions with their attorneys it was decided that was not their responsibility to verify ownership. If they don't check every weapon to make sure you did not steal it they should not be checking to make sure you can legally own a suppressor.