National reciprocity passes 1st hurdle

[11Charlie]

Hey I'm not against every senior serving in our military for three years before going onto college!! These jack wagons want college to be free great then go earn it you worthless pile of !@#$

 

[Diamondback]

Hey I'm not against every senior serving in our military for three years before going onto college!! These jack wagons want college to be free great then go earn it you worthless pile of !@#$

Bear in mind, not everyone is physically or psychologically (or even morally) suitable... and just Basic Training, never mind actual service, would be an impossible sell to the Bluedouches. (Seriously, when the ROTC recruiter introduced me to the doc who does physicals for them around here, I 4-F'ed three different ways without even actually starting the physical... oversize build even while lean, severe allergies and autism.)

Besides, speaking as someone who was educated wih an eye toward ROTC... I wouldn't want anyone serving under me who didn't *want* to be there.

 

[11Charlie]

Bear in mind, not everyone is physically or psychologically (or even morally) suitable... and just Basic Training, never mind actual service, would be an impossible sell to the Bluedouches.

Besides, speaking as someone who was educated wih an eye toward ROTC... I wouldn't want anyone serving under me who didn't *want* to be there.

I get it brother!! Believe me I served and I wouldn't want any of those cracks next to me. I think there is a way to handle that. Like send all the idiots to a different base or duty station. Use them as the first in and it would weed out the stupid as well.

 

[SoberPoster]

Unless and until the SCOTUS is prepared to strike down every gun law in every state (and I don't see that happening anytime soon), I don't see how Congress can require a sovereign state to accept another state's CCP.

Washington, for example, doesn't require any training; Oregon does. Without debating the wisdom of requiring training or not, why should Oregon be forced to accept CCPs held by untrained Washington residents?

I have both Oregon and Washington CPLs BUT as an Armed Private Security Officer I have a "Legitimate" business reason to get one in Oregon which has a "may-issue" policy for out-of-state applicants. It's insane that "Personal Protection" is not a "Legitimate" reason to issue a CPL!!

My training, all from Oregon DPSST, is far superior to anything regular citizens get.
There is talk of an "upgraded" Washington CPL with training so Oregon will accept that upgraded license. I'm all for it, my DPSST training far outclasses any new training to come. That would save me from having to go to Oregon an get another CPL there.

REMEMBER the old days, before the Oregon State Police were given the final say on Oregon citizens qualifying for CPLs: Multnomah County refused to even have APPLICATIONS available for regular citizens! There were less than 1000 CPLs in the whole state! Demand and frustration was so great I heard a radio show from Portland talking about the proposed law: that Host listed the less than 1000 CPL figure and, stupidly on live radio, asked a Clark Co. Deputy "How many CPLs in Washington" (stupid since he didn't pre-interview and already know the answer) The officer said 10,000. The Host said "Oh my God - all those guns"!! The Deputy replied: I don't have figures for the whole state, that's just Clark Co. Bewildered that Host was quite for about 2 minutes: Everyone knew Clark Co. was a quite, semi-rural area without the drive-by shooting and rampant crime as in Portland. For some reason that Oregon bill passed.

LOL, Stan

 

[Certaindeaf]

.
My training, all from Oregon DPSST, is far superior to anything regular citizens get..

I disagree. The United States is full of "regular citizens" that have trained themselves to a much higher degree than any "professional" organization does.
Here's a video of Jeff Cooper saying just that many decades ago..

 

[SoberPoster]

I disagree. The United States is full of "regular citizens" that have trained themselves to a much higher degree than any "professional" organization does.
Here's a video of Jeff Cooper saying just that many decades ago..

Of course Jeff Cooper was an accomplished shooter/trainer and it's possible for anyone to self-study anything, I'll skip surgery from a self-taught surgeon. REGULAR SHOOTERS do not have the time or money to use for such levels of training, I am fortunate I got mine thru work as did millions of police and military. The great masses of honest law-biding citizens are busy with important activities: like providing for their families... they simply can't spend lots of time and money to get anywhere near Jeff's level. My training is state given, documented and valuable in a court of law should I have to use it.
However my point was that I was fortunate to have it, BUT most other Washington residents will have to take extra courses, approved by Oregon, to qualify for Oregon's CPL; my Oregon son has done so, he was not impressed with the simple hunter's safety type course he took to qualify for his Oregon CPL.
THAT'S THE POINT: regular shooters, even a Jeff Cooper, will have to take state recognized courses to qualify for an Oregon CPL or produce documentation showing superior training elsewhere.

LOL, Stan

 

[Certaindeaf]

Of course Jeff Cooper was an accomplished shooter/trainer and..

an astute observer and philosopher.

LOL, Certaindeaf

 

[Koda]

REGULAR SHOOTERS do not have the time or money to use for such levels of training

My training was all voluntary, paid for by myself. The lead instructor is the same instructor that taught the same course of fire to qualify the OSP officers. 8 full hours of live fire training. I got a certificate, that is recognised in court. And I regularly practice those same drills on my own regularly. Also, this is not my only firearm traininv, including legal.

Im just an average citizen with no affiliation to any profession involving guns. This forum is full of regular shooters that do have the time for such levels of training (in fact, I found out later that another NWFA member here was in my class).

 

[ob1]

Caveman Jim said: ↑
Progressive liberal socialist are the ruin of this country and world, it's a disease and it must be stopped.

Saved it on my hard drive so I can re-use it again and again...Hmm maybe a bumper sticker or.........

A sky writer writer could be hired to do election day fly-overs, there's that Navy pilot in Washington that does pretty good work.

 

[Diamondback]

Sorry, dude, Mas Ayoob has a better grasp on this than you do.
MANDATORY FIREARMS TRAINING?

 

[DizzyJ]

My training was all voluntary, paid for by myself. The lead instructor is the same instructor that taught the same course of fire to qualify the OSP officers. 8 full hours of live fire training. I got a certificate, that is recognised in court. And I regularly practice those same drills on my own regularly. Also, this is not my only firearm traininv, including legal.

Im just an average citizen with no affiliation to any profession involving guns. This forum is full of regular shooters that do have the time for such levels of training (in fact, I found out later that another NWFA member here was in my class).

Have to agree. Many civilians have more and better training than many "professionals"

 

[Diamondback]

Have to agree. Many civilians have more and better training than many "professionals"

If there's an Active Shooter case going down and I'm in the mix Downrange, I'd rather have any ten random CCW'ers I know Respond to Threat than any ten NYPD, with how they mowed down 20 bystanders at the Empire State Building shooting.

"Superior Police Training"? WoohoohoohaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! That was good, tell me another one!

 

[DizzyJ]

If there's an Active Shooter case going down and I'm in the mix Downrange, I'd rather have any ten random CCW'ers I know Respond to Threat than any ten NYPD, with how they mowed down 20 bystanders at the Empire State Building shooting.

"Superior Police Training"? WoohoohoohaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! That was good, tell me another one!

While this isn't indicative of all law enforcement, the fact is, most cops aren't "gun guys". It's just a tool to them. On the flip side, I've trained side by side with some LA cops, Clackamas county, and Vancouver SWAT guys who I'd definitely want in my corner.

Blanket statements are just that, "blanket statements", and as such are not always a valid argument to throw out.

My best advice to anyone carrying, is to train. Then train some more.

 

[Diamondback]

While this isn't indicative of all law enforcement, the fact is, most cops aren't "gun guys". It's just a tool to them. On the flip side, I've trained side by side with some LA cops, Clackamas county, and Vancouver SWAT guys who I'd definitely want in my corner.

Blanket statements are just that, "blanket statements", and as such are not always a valid argument to throw out.

My best advice to anyone carrying, is to train. Then train some more.

True, and small-town/rural department officers and deputies are more likely to "exceed minimum" in this aspect of the trade than big "we don't like guns or people who do" urban agencies.

What I would *enthusiastically* support for a government involvement with training is this:

• Publish the training standards all that jurisdiction's LEA's are held to, including Federal, as "recommended guidelines". (NOT mandated, just "here's what those employed to protect you are trained at as a minimum, we recommend that you do your best to match this.")
  
• Require that LEA firearms training sessions be also offered to interested citizens on a Space Available basis at no charge, other than reimbursement for texts, ammo and other consumables.
• Both a sales-tax exemption (WA/other ST states) and nonrefundable income-tax deduction (OR/other IT states and Federal) for private tuition.
• In tandem with the above, I would like to see ASLET's Firearms Committee and the major schools (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Chapman Academy, FAS, Ayoob Group, etc.) establish an Industry Working Group to create a Standards & Accreditation program that could be used to sort out the Real Deals worthy of recognition as an "Accredited Training Program" from the charlatans.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Indeed. My motto is leave people alone and worry about yourself.

 

[tourproto]

The nations basic firearms training was taken away years ago, it used to be incorporated in schools . So now what we have is the demonization in the schools of guns and they don't want anybody to have them, even law abiding citizens.
Let's bring back basic gun safety in schools and let's get back on track with the way it was working so well before the socialist indoctrination of our public school system. What do you think about that?

I've got no problem with that.

FYI, I am in my 50s and never learned about guns in school. Learned about them in the Boy Scouts and at Summer Camp.

When did they use to teach about guns in public schools? There was never anything "negative" taught about guns in K-12 but nothing about teaching gun safety either.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I've got no problem with that.

FYI, I am in my 50s and never learned about guns in school. Learned about them in the Boy Scouts and at Summer Camp.

When did they use to teach about guns in public schools? There was never anything "negative" taught about guns in K-12 but nothing about teaching gun safety either.

I remember middle school in Mississippi during the mid 60's. Our PE included an elective of Skeet & I shot regularly until the end of Jr. High in Georgia (girls and cars took over my attentions).

So I guess it was primarily where you actually went to school. In the South shooting and gun safety was acceptable, just like driver's ed was anywhere in this country.

 

[Diamondback]

Hell, IIRC one of the high schools up in Mason County, WA has a rifle team that regularly ends up ranked in NATIONAL competitions. When the jocks here in the east Sound area threw a fit about my lack of athletic support and I offered to carry their banner as part of a similar school Rifle Team, the Butthurt was Old Testament BIBLICAL...

 

[tourproto]

Sorry, dude, Mas Ayoob has a better grasp on this than you do.
MANDATORY FIREARMS TRAINING?

I thought this was a very good article and brought up some very good points of view.

I also liked some of the comments, two of which are contradictory, but I can ways to agree with both of them.

Interesting conundrum balancing public safety, personal income and self-protection, and a Constitutional right.

Most reasonable citizens, I think, would agree that gun owners should undergo voluntary basic firearms safety training but might balk at passing a law to enforce more compliance. Taking gun ownership a little further is legal concealed carry, which in my mind involves much greater gun owner responsibility and risk to the public if the gun toter is ignorant, inept or reckless. And from my personal experience many CCW folks are.

Thus, I see a middle ground here: no law requiring training merely to own and keep a firearm in one's abode, but mandatory testing and certification (i.e., basic firearms safety knowledge, understanding deadly force situations, being able to hit a target at 10 yards, etc.) for concealed carry.

Comment #2:
If each county in America still had a citizen militia, that militia could MAYBE be trusted to ensure everyone in the county received some firearms training. Since about the time of WWI the citizen militia has become the National Guard. Truth is, we really can't rely on government at any level, to do the right thing. So, as Mas said, we don't want training to be out of reach of the poor. Also, we can't trust the government to do the right thing. So, firearms training is left up to the individual citizen, with the understanding that if he acts unwisely, he could pay dearly for it. This ought to be enough motivation for most citizens to get plenty of training. Nevertheless, our world is imperfect, and will continue to be so.

There are no easy answers to some of these issues and it will continue to be a problem for some time to come with the current state of our government. I have a CHL for 3 states and I have taken the time to get training beyond what was required for my CHL and I joined a gun club to have a place to practice.

FYI, the training and certification to get into my gun club was much greater than the CHL, and to additionally get certified for Action Shooting was even higher. I did it because I realized the significance of concealed carry and wanted to be as prepared as possible for the unthinkable situation of having to draw my weapon.

I guess the "boy scout" in me would like others to take the same care in terms of training and practice that I have done but I am afraid that the vast majority do not and that bothers me. And I understand that many people who WANT to get trained and practice, don't have the means or the flexibility to do it. But getting "big brother" into the mix probably isn't the answer either.

 

[Diamondback]

It would be better if the industry and community created a consensus to establish our own standards, rather than letting non-stakeholders who don't know fresh dogsh*t from peanut-butter at best meddle in matters far beyond their comprehension, like how SAAMI establishes ammo standards or the accounting trade established GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, a similar de-facto standard for their profession), or how the f*ckweasel Ambulance Chasers at the Bar Association are allowed to establish and maintain their own.

Government is like a camel: you want its nose as far from the tent as possible unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, because once the nose is in you will find yourself forevermore fighting to keep the rest OUT.