Much dissed shooting method - better than using a laser?

[JRV]

Some jerk.

Just finished a 4hr CFS refresher course. Don't really care about anyone's past experience or percieved insights, I've had some of my own. I say; train more!

Shooting is not training.

No, I didn't stutter.

IMO; Everyone should train under less than ideal conditions with someone barking negatively in their ear and even bumping into them, poking their ribs, stepping on their toes, and just generally irritating them, to take them out of their comfort zone while they train.

Train after jumping jacks too, I like it. Too much coffee. Hangover. Injury. Pouty face cuz your girlfriend left you. Whatever. Bring duress into your training, that's what's important.

I've never met an 11"x17" piece of paper I couldn't take. But I've met some that weren't as impressed when I was in motion, or tired, or had some jerk telling me my reloads were clumsy and slow and "Keep moving! Why are you standing still!?!"

That's where the rubber meets the road.

I said earlier in this thread, that I'll not train in the described point shoot because of the prerequisite middle finger trigger press and my preferred choice of 1911s, but I do believe and practice point and shoot from 2 to 6 arm lengths, which is what I consider to be a practical critical distance from the holster. I use the slide/frame and training, not practice, in place of my finger.

Leave my sphincter out of this, that remains to be seen...

 

[JRV]

As part of the course it was a technique designed to show that a practiced skill can take you outside of the limitations your mind puts on the machine your operating... your point is well taken.

As I have said lots of times Robb the shooting part isn't rocket science. CFS teaches you defensive pistol skills in context. Not isolated shooting skills. You have referenced the balance of speed and precision. To dumb it down it's fi ding your PERSONSAL skill sets and failure points. What is missing a failure, right? No it's a learning opportunity. Why did you miss what was the problem, what did you do wrong? Were shooting to fast, did yank the trigger instead of press the trigger, did you NEED to use your sights to hit the target because of the size or distance of it?

IMO there is to many things to work on than to worry about using something besides your TRIGGER finger to press the trigger. Seems like a training scar, if the middle has pressed the trigger before who's to say it doesn't happen during a critical incident by accident. Something about a startle grasp comes to mind.

 

[JRV]

Sorry for the typos and grammar typed on iPhone at work

 

[robbalot]

Some jerk.

Lucky guess AC.

 

[wichaka]

I will disagree with the statement "Shooting is not training."

With every presentation from the holster, every trigger press, and every manipulation one does with the gun, IS another repetition for training of the mind, and the anatomical parts attached to it. This how that thing we call "Second Nature" comes about. This is what takes over when the fecal matter makes contact with the bladed oscillator, along with the needed mind set that Col Cooper spoke of many years ago.

Don't believe it?

Drive a stick shift for awhile, then get into a auto-trans vehicle. Your hand will grab for the stick shifter that's not there, and your left foot will stab for the phantom clutch pedal. Most can relate when getting a different vehicle, with most if not all the controls are in a different place, or operate a tad different. Pretty soon you can get into that new vehicle, and everything comes together. You will no longer have to think about where everything is, you'll automatically go to it without thinking...while talking to people in vehicle with you...while listening to music...even talking on your cell phone.

Even every time you drive, its another repetition for training of your mind.

 

[JRV]

It's called intuitive something you have learned or been exposed too.

I believe robb meant sitting at the range in a perfect lil' ballet stance shooting bullseyes isn't training, it's isolated shooting skills. SHOOTING not training. Going out running drills and running the gun in the context of a critical incident is training.

Quite a big difference.

 

[JRV]

I will disagree with the statement "Shooting is not training."

With every presentation from the holster, every trigger press, and every manipulation one does with the gun, IS another repetition for training of the mind, and the anatomical parts attached to it. This how that thing we call "Second Nature" comes about.

So would breaking down my glock be considered training in your training mindset?
I am manipulating the gun and it's said controls. So does it prepare me to use a pistol to defend myself defensively or is it just a isolated skill of taking my gun apart?

 

[robbalot]

It's called intuitive something you have learned or been exposed too.

I believe robb meant sitting at the range in a perfect lil' ballet stance shooting bullseyes isn't training, it's isolated shooting skills. SHOOTING not training. Going out running drills and running the gun in the context of a critical incident is training.

Quite a big difference.

Precisely. Occassionaly I will break out my TJ Hooker stance Just cuz I look so cool doin it, but not enough so that it becomes intuitive.

 

[dan10mmman]

So would breaking down my glock be considered training in your training mindset?
I am manipulating the gun and it's said controls. So does it prepare me to use a pistol to defend myself defensively or is it just a isolated skill of taking my gun apart?

Are you really asking this question? You are out at night, you dont see a whole in the ground as it is filled with mud and water. You are chest deep in mud, your gun is full of mud and A bunch of pink leather boys see your problem and are on thier way to "help you out". being proficient at clearing your piece is suddenly real important......I know just an example of the endless possibilities. But seriously are you really asking this question?

 

[JRV]

Are you really asking this question? You are out at night, you dont see a whole in the ground as it is filled with mud and water. You are chest deep in mud, your gun is full of mud and A bunch of pink leather boys see your problem and are on thier way to "help you out". being proficient at clearing your piece is suddenly real important......I know just an example of the endless possibilities. But seriously are you really asking this question?

Yeah it was a serious question, DBAC.

Something about the plausibility factor.

Train for what is probable

Then train for what's plausible

Training for what's possible is a lil' much, anything is possible.

Train for probable first, plausible second. You don't have enough time or ammo for everything possible.

 

[wichaka]

So would breaking down my glock be considered training in your training mindset?
I am manipulating the gun and it's said controls. So does it prepare me to use a pistol to defend myself defensively or is it just a isolated skill of taking my gun apart?

We're talking apples and oranges in this respect, you're not manipulating the gun the way you would when shooting it.

Take a apart a 1911 for the first time all the way down to the small parts and see how long it took to do it.
Now, do it over and over, and things speed up, and you'll get to the point where you won't have to think about it. The same when putting it back together.

My point being again, every time you do something...it trains the mind in some aspect.

 

[wichaka]

It's called intuitive something you have learned or been exposed too.

I believe robb meant sitting at the range in a perfect lil' ballet stance shooting bullseyes isn't training, it's isolated shooting skills. SHOOTING not training. Going out running drills and running the gun in the context of a critical incident is training.

Quite a big difference.

Yep, I agree...that is a big difference.

But you're still pressing the trigger, and when the gun runs dry one still has to manipulate it. There's an aspect of training to everything we do with a gun, because we weren't born with it.

As I said above, if one only practices one trigger pull and sight picture/alignment, they are target shooter and are not preparing themselves for the street.

 

[JRV]

We're talking apples and oranges in this respect, you're not manipulating the gun the way you would when shooting it.

Take a apart a 1911 for the first time all the way down to the small parts and see how long it took to do it.
Now, do it over and over, and things speed up, and you'll get to the point where you won't have to think about it. The same when putting it back together.

My point being again, every time you do something...it trains the mind in some aspect.

I disagree. Words mean things, so saying any manipulation of the firearm is training I strongly disagree. Why because we were talking about training in the context of SD. So taking apart is just shenanigans in the context of this discussion.

I put a gen 2 extractor and new guide rod in my 19 yesterday. Today I shot it to make sure all was well and it was functioning. So manipulated the slide, mag release and touch and pressed the trigger. Was I training? Nope not at all. I was shooting the gun that's all. 75 rounds wasted on shooting not training. Huge difference.

 

[wichaka]

I'm sorry you wasted 75 rounds on shooting, that can get expensive.

 

[Grant Cunningham]

It's important to get some terms defined before arguing about them.

Training: being exposed to or being initially taught a subject (skill or concept.)
Practice: repeating the learned skill in a systematic way to increase proficiency.
Weaseling: equating the encounter of all slight variations in execution with 'training'.

Merely shooting is not training, unless you are actively being exposed to a skill that you haven't seen or performed before. Shooting may not even be practice, unless you are performing previously learned skills in the way that you learned them and in the manner that they will be employed.

Manipulating the gun isn't training once you've done it, and doing it inconsistently isn't practice because it does nothing to increase the neocortex's recognition of the stimulus and its recall of the response. The whole purpose of practice is to develop the ability of the brain to recognize a particular situation and use the aperceptive ability of recall to perform the necessary response.

Can you shoot 50 rounds without it being training? Of course; most people do it most of the time, even those who have been highly trained. Can you do so without it being practice? Yes, if it's done contrary to or in disregard of your training.

Of the two, practice is the more disciplined part of skill development and the least likely to be properly understood.

-=[ Grant ]=-

 

[toolfan]

-=[ Grant ]=-

You've got a great blog - it's cool to see you on here.

 

[wichaka]

Weaseling: equating the encounter of all slight variations in execution with 'training'.

I've never heard that in the context of firearms.

Only in this definition;

to escape from or evade a situation or obligation —

 

[supergenius]

my father taught me how to point shoot at age 12 with masking tape on the sights. Then graduated to skeet shooting, no bead. when your batteries go dead or your scope takes a dump whatcha goin' ta do tech boys?

BTW I still shoot better one handed than two, beats me.

HAHAHAHAHA ME TOOO!!! At anything ledd than 50 or so feet...I dont get it.

 

[supergenius]

I used to go see the Mile all the time in San Jose and Sacramento when I was a kid with my dad. Countersteering indeed works.. Ol Bubba shobert was the man.

 

[LS719]

<broken link removed>

Here is a starting point for insight to point shooting.