Much dissed shooting method - better than using a laser?

[spengo]

My thoughts on lasers:
On handguns
1) pretty fast
2) I shoot faster and more accurately with fiber optic irons
3) good idea on tiny pocket guns that have no real sights
On rifles
1) Why? I have a red dot that is more accurate and has longer battery life.

On point and shoot:
1) Poor trigger control with middle finger, bad if you want to be able to shoot more than one accurate shot, actually bad for shooting even one accurate shot.
2) Forces you into using a two-fingered grip that is bad for controlling muzzle rise, not very compatible with two-handed shooting either. Also bad for firing more than one shot.
3) Natural pointing and shooting can be easily achieved with lots of draw-and-fire dry fire practice so you always get a consistent grip and extension
4) At <5yd targets in IPSC/IDPA competitions I generally do not bother focusing on the sights, my draw is consistent enough that I can trust they will be mostly lined up. None of this silly middle finger shooting business though.

 

[mjbskwim]

I'd like to see the average guy hit a paper plate 80% of the time at 90 feet in fairly rapid fire - a shot per second using his sights. I don't think he can even recover from recoil and acquire his sights that fast, let alone actually fire and hit his target repeatedly.

I'm not saying there aren't people who can do it, I've just never met one.

Imagine a paper plate over your chest, and then imagine it getting hit with a .40 almost once per second, somewhere on that plate, from 90 feet.

Ever watch someone with a laser at the range?
Most of the people I have seen can't hold the laser still enough to use it effectively.One guy had the thing dancing all over the target.He was in the rings but not on bulls eye.

I have to say I clear the gun before doing this,and nobody is around the house

I tend to take my pistol,hold it to the side and bring it to target on something,then look at the sites.
Look at a door knob a light switch,the dogs that just chewed my slipper(jk)
This way I can get the grip right to point shoot better.
After a bunch of draws,I can remember the placement of the pistol in my hand and bring the gun on target every time.
Works pretty good for me at least

Now hitting the plate as stated above is a different story,but I have found this to be a great way to start my point shooting.

 

[mjbskwim]

) Poor trigger control with middle finger, bad if you want to be able to shoot more than one accurate shot, actually bad for shooting even one accurate shot.
2) Forces you into using a two-fingered grip that is bad for controlling muzzle rise, not very compatible with two-handed shooting either. Also bad for firing more than one shot.

Don't you point with the index then move it to the trigger?
You have the finger off the trigger until you are sure you are going to fire anyway,right?

 

[spengo]

Don't you point with the index then move it to the trigger?
You have the finger off the trigger until you are sure you are going to fire anyway,right?

Right. That is normal, safe gun handling.

This shooting method suggests leaving your index finger pointing along the side of the gun and using your middle finger to pull the trigger. Ridiculous!

 

[g.i. joe]

I'd like to see the average guy hit a paper plate 80% of the time at 90 feet in fairly rapid fire - a shot per second using his sights. I don't think he can even recover from recoil and acquire his sights that fast, let alone actually fire and hit his target repeatedly.

I'm not saying there aren't people who can do it, I've just never met one.

Imagine a paper plate over your chest, and then imagine it getting hit with a .40 almost once per second, somewhere on that plate, from 90 feet.

agreed if you can only hit 80 percent in practice thats a scary proposition for self defense scenario remember your responsible for were your projectile ends up

I would like to know what percentage of hits out to 10-15m range. This is the distance where the majority of s**t goes down, not 30m. Also, have you added any stress to the equation? Try just adding time pressure to your training, or sprinting 50 yards. How does this affect your accuracy? I will bet your hits will drop 50% or less (mind you, you still won't be under the pressure of your paper plate fireing back at you)
Even if your sceinario has a perfect back stop protection from your 20% of negligent rounds, 80% is not good odds for a life or death situation. When you consider 2 out of 10 rounds miss the target. What if you only get two shots off at the bad guy, (and they both miss) who showed up to the fight with a more appropriate tool like shotgun or rifle? At that point, 2 missed shots in 2 seconds is 0% hits.
Also, I accept the challenge of firing 1 shot per second at 30m utilizing my sights. Recovering from recoil is exactly the same weather I'm utilizing sights or not.
I'm not trying to negate your abilities, it is actually impressive you can hit a paper plate 80% at that distance without sights, I just don't agree with your defense in the argument.

 

[John Davis]

Seems most of the debate on shooting methods centers on the concept of taking a novice shooter, with limited time, and trying to find the best way to make them a gunfighter very quickly.

Well it doesn't work that way....no substitute for a Dillon 550B and regular attendance at a gun club......

 

[5shot]

Lots of interesting comments, and thank you for them.

As to the grip, it's not a 3 fingered range type grip where the thumb is not pressing against the gun and index finger is held aloof from the gun so you can squeeze it back until the shot breaks.

Per the literature in a combat situation you will have a crush grip on the gun so you can forget about keeping the index finger aloof from the gun or which finger is used on the trigger.

The grip is a strong 4 fingered grip made up of the thumb and index finger and the ring and little fingers. you can squeeze the beegebers out of the gun and all you will do is make the grip stronger.

And keeping the index finger along the side of the gun (if the gun is appropriate for its placement there - not a 19110, allows you to aim each shot fast, naturally, and accurately per the text in the US Army's Combat Pistol Manual about our ability to point fast and accurately at targets.

As to distances, if you are going to be shot and or killed, there is an 80% chance that that will happen at less than 20 feet. So IMHO, that's what you should train for.



Never had seen a target like it, so I bought one when I went to the range and used it for my first 5 of the day. I was shooting at Mr. Orange. I also usually shot as fast as I can point-n-pull, point-n-pull which is as fast as I can shoot effectively and much faster than Sight Shooting.

.....

I haven't been here for awhile and got an e-mail that you miss me.

So, I am going to start a thread on adding an aiming aid to your pistol to provide for automatic and correct sight alignment and fast and natural target engagement for each shot taken.

Thanks again for your comments

 

[JRV]

Seems most of the debate on shooting methods centers on the concept of taking a novice shooter, with limited time, and trying to find the best way to make them a gunfighter very quickly.

Well it doesn't work that way....no substitute for a Dillon 550B and regular attendance at a gun club......

You are right it's about making someone as dangerous to the threat as possible, which in turn is going to make them safer faster.

I was asked in a instructor development class, "if you had 30 seconds to teach someone to defend themselves with a firearm what would you say?"

I wouldnt be teaching them a bunch of mechanical shooting BS. Grab the gun put extend the gun in and parellel with your line of sight touch & press the trigger. Its not rocket science. How many people with no formal training have picked up a gun stuck the gun in there line of sight and pressed the trigger have defended themselves?

 

[JRV]

It takes only a fraction of a second longer than Point Shooting to bring up the iron sights and actually aim a quick shot......................elsullo

How many bullets can said threat fire in that fraction of a second? If it's more than zero that is way to many. The point is to be SAFER FASTER

 

[5shot]

In a CQB situation, according to the literature, you will have a crush grip on the gun.

As such when shooting you will torque the gun down and to the left, which is where most misses go. It's not rocket science, just basic physics.

As to aiming, the science says you will not be able to focus on the sights if you are in a self defense situation at CQ.

Adrenaline in such situations, is naturally and instinctively dumped into our blood stream and remains there until dissipated. It relaxes the muscle that controls the shape of the eye lens. The shape changes from that which allows near vision for doing things such as focusing on the sites, to a flattened state that provides far vision for focusing on who or what is trying to kill you.

Got doubts, look it up on WIKI.

Try as you will, try as you might, you ain't going to be able to see them sights, and particularly at night. What you will do is frustrate yourself and do who knows what in a life or death situation.

Unless you have an optional and effective method of shooting to use, expect that you will be one who gets shot and/or killed. Your only savings grace is that most people miss in CQB situations, the hit rate being < 20%.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I'm reminded of playing paintball outdoors at the tournament level, which I did for 15 years. I had a custom semi-auto marker with which I could fire 7 rounds per second manually operating the trigger. I had about $1500 worth of work in that gun. It had a Red Dot sight on it. The sight was used only in sniper situations. Most of the time the action was too fast and furious for even the Red Dot. At times I was going through 5000 rounds per day. I figure that's about 3 million rounds over the 15 years that I played and practiced, almost all of it "point and shoot". I believe paintball is valid training for a firefight in a lot of ways. First of all, there are people shooting back. Second the adrenaline is flowing. Third, the opening scenario is usually something like at the sound of the whistle you sprint 100 yards up a hill and dive into some cover and start crawling.

It's tactics, like flanking, stealth, and team cooperation. You quickly learn that if you stop in one place for more than a few seconds you are dead. You learn to shoot and move. You learn to deal with equipment malfunctions, minor injuries, and stress. You learn angles, how to shoot on the run and hit something, and brute force attacks. You learn what the other guy will try to do in a given situation.

The most important part of it is just learning to hit where you are looking, even shooting from the hip. To this day I can go to the trap range once a year and break 23 out of 25 with a shotgun with no practice. Yes, I'm a believer in point and shoot in a high stress situation.

 

[MA Duce]

The most important part of it is just learning to hit where you are looking, even shooting from the hip. To this day I can go to the trap range once a year and break 23 out of 25 with a shotgun with no practice. Yes, I'm a believer in point and shoot in a high stress situation.


Continuous practice to develop muscle memory is the key to any manual skill, whether it is stacking marbles, swinging an axe, hand to hand combat or shooting. I was trained in the dark ages when lasers were science fiction weapons, and shooting where you were looking, developed by endless practice, was the golden egg for CQ action. It works, it is independent of the chance of mechanical failure, and it has saved my life.

 

[Islandeddie]

If I had any enemies, I would hope they all use this method.

jj

We (brown water navy) were taught P&S before our tour in Vietnam. I was amazed that we could hit a tossed slug the size of a quarter with a BB rifle. I am a believer, just ask my enemies.

 

[MA Duce]

We (brown water navy) were taught P&S before our tour in Vietnam. I was amazed that we could hit a tossed slug the size of a quarter with a BB rifle. I am a believer, just ask my enemies.

Operation Markettime vet here,...a big **** yes!! A laser might be cool, but if you train to shoot with one and it dies on you, you're screwed.

 

[simpleguy]

It all boils down to training and the situation.