Much dissed shooting method - better than using a laser?

[Gunner3456]

Of course dirt track riders yawn at the mention of counter steering....

Actually, it was an accomplished dirt track racer who taught me how to counter steer. Works even better on a heavy bike like one of my Harleys.

Look at this guy turning his wheel right so he can turn left.

Put an empty dixie cup on a table on its side, and roll it. It will roll in a circle around the small (bottom) end. Motorcycle and bicycle tires are like that - bigger diameter in the center than near the rim. Just like the dixie cup, when you lay the bike over, the "dixie cup" principle takes over and the bike will turn toward the smaller diameter near the rim. Counter steering just lays the bike over so that the differential in diameter across the tire can turn it, just like a dixie cup.

The "dixie cup" force is greater than the small amount of counter steer that's used to keep the bike tipped. Otherwise if you steer in the direction you want to go, centrifugal force will try to lean the bike to the outside of the turn, putting you in the ditch.

 

[gunnoob75]

when your batteries go dead or your scope takes a dump whatcha goin' ta do tech boys?.

Uhh.. Use irons?

 

[coop44]

Uhh.. Use irons?

Do you know how?? does your rifle even have iron sights?

 

[gunnoob75]

Do you know how?? does your rifle even have iron sights?

Yes... In fact, my pistol ONLY has iron sights.

What does this have to do with point shooting?

 

[coop44]

Yes... In fact, my pistol ONLY has iron sights.

What does this have to do with point shooting?

suprising, most people here seem to only be able to shoot anything with some sort of whoop de doo high tech laser guided tritium filled bs on their guns. Pretty soon they will be able to send their guns out to the range and watch on their laptops from starbucks.

what it has to do with point shooting - nothing, just stirring up some crap

 

[robbalot]

suprising, most people here seem to only be able to shoot anything with some sort of whoop de doo high tech laser guided tritium filled bs on their guns. Pretty soon they will be able to send their guns out to the range and watch on their laptops from starbucks.

what it has to do with point shooting - nothing, just stirring up some crap

Yeah forget all that whoop de doo. Stick to basics, I employ only whiz-bang.

Every shooter should know how to use their fixed or BUIS regardless of whether they point shoot or use a laser or whatev.

I love my holographic rigs but am fully aware that batteries can't be 100% relied upon, so I made sure to setup my BUIS to sight through it.

Techs great but a guy still needs to be able to chuck a rock if he has to.

 

[coop44]

Yeah forget all that whoop de doo. Stick to basics, I employ only whiz-bang.

Every shooter should know how to use their fixed or BUIS regardless of whether they point shoot or use a laser or whatev.

I love my holographic rigs but am fully aware that batteries can't be 100% relied upon, so I made sure to setup my BUIS to sight through it.

Techs great but a guy still needs to be able to chuck a rock if he has to.

exactly

 

[elsullo]

Point Shooting seems miraculous fun when practicing. But it goes completely sideways when in a real fight! In sudden panic for one's life there is a huge dump of adrenaline into the bloodstream that renders practiced muscle control barely manageable. "Muscle Memory" becomes nearly uncontrollable trembling, and even the anal sphincter muscles want to let go! FEAR makes the body shudder and shake, and hands convulse. Point Shooting in a panic becomes simply WILD, uncontrolled, unaimed blasting. Just try doing fifty jumping-jacks to get your heart racing before you try Point Shooting, and see how your accuracy loses its miracle.

It takes only a fraction of a second longer than Point Shooting to bring up the iron sights and actually aim a quick shot. THIS muscle memory is already onboard, and far more likely to make a hit in a panic......................elsullo

 

[Gunner3456]

Point Shooting seems miraculous fun when practicing. But it goes completely sideways when in a real fight! In sudden panic for one's life there is a huge dump of adrenaline into the bloodstream that renders practiced muscle control barely manageable. "Muscle Memory" becomes nearly uncontrollable trembling, and even the anal sphincter muscles want to let go! FEAR makes the body shudder and shake, and hands convulse. Point Shooting in a panic becomes simply WILD, uncontrolled, unaimed blasting. Just try doing fifty jumping-jacks to get your heart racing before you try Point Shooting, and see how your accuracy loses its miracle.

It takes only a fraction of a second longer than Point Shooting to bring up the iron sights and actually aim a quick shot. THIS muscle memory is already onboard, and far more likely to make a hit in a panic......................elsullo

So, in a real fight your body and mind panics so badly that you can't point shoot, but you're so calm you can use your sights just fine even though your "Muscle Memory" becomes nearly uncontrollable trembling, and even the anal sphincter muscles want to let go!"

If you're so shaky and trembling that you can't point shoot, you're not going to do well with your sights either.

Because most gunfights occur at close range, and because you want to be the first to score the most hits to center mass that you can, I can only hope that if I'm ever in a gunfight the other guy takes the time to try to align his sights. I'll have about six bullets in him before he gets started, with 8 more left in my mag.

$.02

 

[coop44]

Point Shooting seems miraculous fun when practicing. But it goes completely sideways when in a real fight! In sudden panic for one's life there is a huge dump of adrenaline into the bloodstream that renders practiced muscle control barely manageable. "Muscle Memory" becomes nearly uncontrollable trembling, and even the anal sphincter muscles want to let go! FEAR makes the body shudder and shake, and hands convulse. Point Shooting in a panic becomes simply WILD, uncontrolled, unaimed blasting. Just try doing fifty jumping-jacks to get your heart racing before you try Point Shooting, and see how your accuracy loses its miracle.

It takes only a fraction of a second longer than Point Shooting to bring up the iron sights and actually aim a quick shot. THIS muscle memory is already onboard, and far more likely to make a hit in a panic......................elsullo

wow, makes think I must be a sociopath/psychopath, been dead once already, accepted it, only thing scary in my life is my (third) wife!!

PS aim lower, the abdominal shot will create so much pain your target will most likely fold, and, take several days to die very painfully without treatment.

 

[Outrider]

Point shooting has its place but it is not the ideal. Using point shooting as a primary technique is basically an admission that you are not even going to attempt to get good (accurate, fast, and consistent) with aimed fire.

Some of the real high end shooters have an expression: "Aim more and shoot less." -If you're throwing away 20% of your shots on a stationary target on the range with point shooting, what do you think it'll be when your opponent is moving and you're moving?

Regarding lasers, there are definitely pros and cons. Context is a big deal for when using a laser is suitable and when it's not. I have to admit, in my past, I was slow to appreciate them beyond being a range toy. Now I can see their advantages but watching people train with them I also have become aware of their limitations. If you have floodlights (headlights, searchlights, etc.) pointing in your direction at night, you can have major problems trying to find your laser. You don't understand the difficulty until you try to find the laser with a strong light in your eyes in a nighttime environment.

I also noticed when people are engaging small targets at 25+ yards with handguns the normal amount of shake or wobble seems to get magnified as the laser travels with the shooter's shake or wobble. Even people who are normally good with lasers seem to fall apart trying to pick their shot or guess their wobble zone when they should have just gone to sights for good aimed fire. If you know how to trust your shake, you can make it work. However if you don't, it can be frustrating.

 

[wichaka]

Seems the OP of the thread tends to make his rounds with this method ever so often...and here we are again debating the same schtuff.

Does point shooting have its place? Yep, the same as aimed fire.

I must ask elsullo to qualify your statement about point shooting and gunfights. Is this from actual experience, what you read, heard etc.?

I've not seen any of that on the street, or even in after action reports or interviews. Not saying it hasn't happened as everyone will react differently, but its not the norm.

I have been in attendance of numerous seminars of folks who have stated such things, but have come to know the only shots they have ever heard was either at a range, or on T.V.

However, I have seen such things once the incident is over and all is safe. The adrenaline remains in the system for awhile, with nothing to help relieve it. The effects you speak of certainly occur in most individuals I talked with, and reports I've read, but after the smoke has cleared.

I find with most people I've talked with, reports I've read, as well of my own experiences...sights are over rated. They have their place, but few have the chance to get their sights into play, unless things unfold at a slower pace.

Practice both, as I've stated before about combat shooting;

Speed and accuracy work together, which is to get hit(s) as soon as possible.
Pressing the trigger at the speed needed to control the sights to hit your target is what it's all about.

If the threat is in anyway difficult to hit, you will need to slow down on the trigger and focus more on sight alignment.
If the threat is close and easy to hit, then….....this is no time for a bullseye type group, in fact, you need to be pounding shots into the threat as fast as possible and stop the threat NOW!
Most of the time you will be somewhere between the two above examples.

Practice this process slow at first..........remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Speed will come with practice.

Your decision on how fast vs. how slow to press the trigger, how much front sight vs. combat look through and/or body index is based on two things, your perception of the threat situation AND your perception of your skill with your equipment.

If you practice only one trigger press and sight alignment you are a target shooter and not preparing yourself properly for the street, and doing yourself an injustice.
Recognize the need for different levels of trigger press and sight alignment, practice at those levels and in between. Find drills that will help you in changing gears smoothly. In the fight have the ability to adapt to the situation smoothly not to survive, but to decisively win.

 

[elsullo]

Thankyou, Wichaka, all of your points are valid, and I should have made a similar longer post like yours with more detail. Yes, if an opponent is right near you point shooting in a big hurry is the way to go. But if there is any substantial distance between you you cannot expect point shooting to be as accurate as you might have practiced without a lethal threat, or without your heart rate exploding through your arteries. Your aimed distance shots will also not be as good as usual, but your point shots will be even wilder off the intended mark.

Point Shooting is practiced with a calm, concentrated body. It will not work as expected in a deadly panic when your body is trying to jump out of your skin. Yes, I have been in a bunch of deadly fights and situations, and have FELT fine motor control defy me. My time as a young adult was lived in a rough "ghetto" and my middle age was spent as a public bus driver. I have been shot at at least three times when I had no gun, and nearly stabbed once. I have been in potentially lethal shoving matches with "gangsters" and in one of which I actually FORGOT that I had a gun in my pocket for a few minutes! I am not just speaking theoretically about the "adrenaline dump," and have been there too often---just ask my grey hairs.

I have also had five excellent day-long shooting training courses from a first-class multi-certified instructor, Clyde Caceres, who passed on tales from all of his students which included law enforcement agencies.

My posted message was very simple: don't expect miracle point-shooting when you are under lethal panic. Just do fifty or a hundred jumping-jacks to get your heart pumping and THEN test your point shooting!.......................elsullo

 

[robbalot]

Just finished a 4hr CFS refresher course. Don't really care about anyone's past experience or percieved insights, I've had some of my own. I say; train more!

Shooting is not training.

No, I didn't stutter.

IMO; Everyone should train under less than ideal conditions with someone barking negatively in their ear and even bumping into them, poking their ribs, stepping on their toes, and just generally irritating them, to take them out of their comfort zone while they train.

Train after jumping jacks too, I like it. Too much coffee. Hangover. Injury. Pouty face cuz your girlfriend left you. Whatever. Bring duress into your training, that's what's important.

I've never met an 11"x17" piece of paper I couldn't take. But I've met some that weren't as impressed when I was in motion, or tired, or had some jerk telling me my reloads were clumsy and slow and "Keep moving! Why are you standing still!?!"

That's where the rubber meets the road.

I said earlier in this thread, that I'll not train in the described point shoot because of the prerequisite middle finger trigger press and my preferred choice of 1911s, but I do believe and practice point and shoot from 2 to 6 arm lengths, which is what I consider to be a practical critical distance from the holster. I use the slide/frame and training, not practice, in place of my finger.

Leave my sphincter out of this, that remains to be seen...

 

[Gunner3456]

The worst thing about always needing to be right is that some day you may wind up being dead right.

- meant for no one in particular here...

 

[robbalot]

Your right Gunner. No pun intended.

I prefer dead right over dead wrong.

Truth is; I'm seldom right.

Wichaka: you make good sense to me. Balance of speed and precision.

 

[Gunner3456]

Your right Gunner. No pun intended.

I prefer dead right over dead wrong.

Truth is; I'm seldom right.

Wichaka: you make good sense to me. Balance of speed and precision.

+1. Now, if someone would remove all of the posts from this thread and just leave Wichaka's, people could learn something useful.

 

[robbalot]

+1. Now, if someone would remove all of the posts from this thread and just leave Wichaka's, people could learn something useful.

Roger, Yet again.

 

[i8asquirrel]

I have prcticed with my lasers a good deal. they have some distinct advantages.....being able to ingage a target laying down on your side,(wounded warrior ) or reaching around cover, I can hold my hand resting on a counter and know with all confidence that I caan put my rounds exactly on target..

 

[robbalot]

I have prcticed with my lasers a good deal. they have some distinct advantages.....being able to ingage a target laying down on your side,(wounded warrior ) or reaching around cover, I can hold my hand resting on a counter and know with all confidence that I caan put my rounds exactly on target..

Super sweet.