latest Sig 320 spontaneously discharge

[E4mafia]

Well if the mind was open to even the idea that it's a possibility that the 320 has issues we probably wouldn't need to pull all the low hanging Glock fruit.

Glocks grow from trees? Where do I find one?
Been looking for the money tree too but I never found it.

 

[Koda]

I'll say this...
I don't think Montville PD will be bringing any sort of lawsuit against SIG.
I would suspect that they are embarrassed and want to move on.

oh I concluded that after Sigs response confirmed they werent using the holster correctly. Much "cheaper" for them to blame the gun and buy the dept new Glocks.

 

[Member 53328]

Yes. Yes I do.

 

[DirectDrive]

Well if the mind was open to even the idea that it's a possibility that the 320 has issues we probably wouldn't need to pull all the low hanging Glock fruit.

I like picking that low-hanging Glock fruit.
Finding the a$$-shooting events was shocking, I'll say.


I really don't think there's anything wrong with P320.
It's in the spotlight right now, so what. So was Glock at one time.
Cops have been handling this thing poorly, they have had ND's and they polluted the waters with their accusations because they don't want to get reprimanded or terminated.
You say it enough times, people start believing.

I've been all the way through these things down to the tiniest spring.
I don't buy any of the lawyer speak BS.

 

[Kruel J]

Anyway you guys have fun with this. It's really going nowhere and I want to play some Titanfall 2. @DirectDrive there's a few games I play that have Sigs. I use them no problem.

 

[Mono1]

So,

Is this a good time for me to suggest the Zero ND record of a Smith Wheelgun?

 

[DirectDrive]

Anyway you guys have fun with this. It's really going nowhere and I want to play some Titanfall 2. @DirectDrive there's a few games I play that have Sigs. I use them no problem.

Don't shoot yourself in the a$$



ETA
'cause I ain't patchin' it

 

[solv3nt]

Better in the cheek than in the hole….

Don't you point yours at your pecker on a daily basis at Costco?

 

[Member 53328]

Don't you point yours at your pecker on a daily basis at Costco?

Yes……. I'm just half way to being a tranny.

 

[DirectDrive]

Don't you point yours at your pecker on a daily basis at Costco?

I recommend only around the cooler.
That way when the perkiness exits the cooler, everything is under control.

 

[SilverNW]

The military has been using the P320 for years at this point, yet they do not have any uncommanded discharges from their holsters. The only difference between the military's P320s and civilian P320s is the existance of the manual thumb safety. According to Sig Mechanic's demonstrations of the manual thumb safety on the P320, the manual safety only prevents the trigger from moving and does not actually block the sear from disengaging/dropping.

On a P365, the manual thumb safety actually blocks the sear from disengaging/dropping in addition to blocking the physical movement of the trigger.

So the P365 should be an inherently safer design as it physically prevents the sear from disengaging, unlike the P320. However, the military has not experienced any uncommanded discharges with the P320s, which has a manual thumb safety, unlike law enforcements. Law enforcements has been experiencing a lot of uncommanded discharges from their P320s. However, the manual thumb safeties only prevents the trigger from moving... That means that the only way to have a P320 go off is the trigger... I don't know but I'm kind of leaning towards the operator errors.

 

[WillametteWill]

The military has been using the P320 for years at this point, yet they do not have any uncommanded discharges from their holsters. The only difference between the military's P320s and civilian P320s is the existance of the manual thumb safety. According to Sig Mechanic's demonstrations of the manual thumb safety on the P320, the manual safety only prevents the trigger from moving and does not actually block the sear from disengaging/dropping.

On a P365, the manual thumb safety actually blocks the sear from disengaging/dropping in addition to blocking the physical movement of the trigger.

So the P365 should be an inherently safer design as it physically prevents the sear from disengaging, unlike the P320. However, the military has not experienced any uncommanded discharges with the P320s, which has a manual thumb safety, unlike law enforcements. Law enforcements has been experiencing a lot of uncommanded discharges from their P320s. However, the manual thumb safeties only prevents the trigger from moving... That means that the only way to have a P320 go off is the trigger... I don't know but I'm kind of leaning towards the operator errors.

^^^^This

THIS STORY is from someone who was in the military and then had an ND while working for a .gov agency while carrying a 320. He was drawing from the holster during training and claims he did not touch the trigger. Where I worked, many of the NDs were under these conditions with GLOCKS, including one while I was on campus involving a shot-off toe. The gun wasn't blamed, the holster wasn't blamed, the shooter owned up to his mistake. Knowing how these things work and how our brain perceives events (especially ones that end badly) it is easy for us the honestly think we did not touch a trigger even if we do. I wasn't there for this specific case so talking more in general.

But again, Sig's fault, even though incidents like this happen so frequently (with all types of firearms) you will not even find them in the news. Virtually none of the NDs ever make it to the media. But now if it is a Sig...big news.

What I don't know (so I have not used this to compare M17/M18s with P320) is the carry condition commonly used for military handguns. Is the current SOP chambered or not? But even if not chambered, by now if they were going "click" with the same frequency as civilian, safety-less models are going "bang" I'm thinking we would have heard something. I've yet to hear someone who carries on an empty chamber say, "All of a sudden, while doing nothing, I heard a loud click from my holster."

As for where are all of the lawsuits for Glocks over Sigs. One article I read indicated there are currently 60 active lawsuits against Sig. Back in the late 90s, the Firearms Litigation Clearinghouse in Washington was monitoring, wait for it, 60 lawsuits against Glock. This represented 90% of the litigation against firearms manufacturers they were watching. To me, this is an apples-to-apples comparison. Glocks now have a plethora of well-fitting holsters, many have higher trigger weights mandated by departments (still one of the issues I think we are seeing with Sigs IMHO, light trigger pull weights) and they are on Gen 5 of Perfection .

My obligatory disclaimer, if Sigs are scientifically and not antidotally found to have an issue, I'll be all over them. I own no Sigs (M&P, 1911, and revolver platforms for me). My bride does use, and sometimes carries, a M18 or P320...both with safeties.

 

[Member 53328]

The military has been using the P320 for years at this point, yet they do not have any uncommanded discharges from their holsters. The only difference between the military's P320s and civilian P320s is the existance of the manual thumb safety. According to Sig Mechanic's demonstrations of the manual thumb safety on the P320, the manual safety only prevents the trigger from moving and does not actually block the sear from disengaging/dropping.

On a P365, the manual thumb safety actually blocks the sear from disengaging/dropping in addition to blocking the physical movement of the trigger.

So the P365 should be an inherently safer design as it physically prevents the sear from disengaging, unlike the P320. However, the military has not experienced any uncommanded discharges with the P320s, which has a manual thumb safety, unlike law enforcements. Law enforcements has been experiencing a lot of uncommanded discharges from their P320s. However, the manual thumb safeties only prevents the trigger from moving... That means that the only way to have a P320 go off is the trigger... I don't know but I'm kind of leaning towards the operator errors.

The military is really good at keeping things "in house."

While I was in I witnessed "NDs" with both the M9, M16/M4 as well as the Benelli M1014, taser, M240B and M249. Including mechanical failures such as a runaway gun. All of which have manual safeties. Other than mechanical they were all human error. I EASd before the P320 was adopted but I can 100% promise you that if they have "NDs" with all the other weapon platforms they will with the P320 too.

I'll be the first to say (and already have in this thread) that I don't believe the P320 just fires randomly, on its own. With that said I would be a fool to say the platform couldn't be improved and is more likely to have a "ND" occur then other similar platforms such as Glock, M&P, etc.

I'm not in the camp that believes there is some witch hunt against Sig.

 

[Koda]

All the arguments against Sig have been flawed. And the more we dig into this the more evidence it's the user.
But the real irony here is the huge elephant in the closet, a manual safety. Sadly, I dont see the community or industry admitting that anytime soon.

 

[Member 53328]

All the arguments against Sig have been flawed. And the more we dig into this the more evidence it's the user.
But the real irony here is the huge elephant in the closet, a manual safety. Sadly, I dont see the community or industry admitting that anytime soon.

Mechanical safety vs. training. Take your pick.

 

[Kruel J]

All the arguments against Sig have been flawed. And the more we dig into this the more evidence it's the user.
But the real irony here is the huge elephant in the closet, a manual safety. Sadly, I dont see the community or industry admitting that anytime soon.

You're saying a manual safety would fix this?

 

[WillametteWill]

But the real irony here is the huge elephant in the closet, a manual safety.

My friend, I sometimes think you are I are stranded on an island together with this. I'll be Wilson, you can be Tom Hanks.

You're saying a manual safety would fix this?

If it is due to trigger activation, either by the user or another outside force (e.g., improper holster, debris, etc.) then yes.

Mechanical safety vs. training. Take your pick.

I'm gonna go with both on this. They are not mutually exclusive.

And you guys are still awesome after 21 pages!!!

 

[Lu1555]

…

 

[Member 53328]

I strongly suggest people watch the video. Look at how much of his gun is above the top of the holster before he interacts with the suspect and after he interacts with the suspect. You can clearly see his gun drops about an inch or two after he interacts with the suspect. You can also see that when the gun drops lower in the holster it looks like his belt or gun or holster gets hung up on one of the other officers. From what I can see his gun isn't fully holsters, he then bumps into the other officer interacting with the suspect catching his gun on the other officer, the gun is then forced down into the holster and the gun goes off. My guess is that his uniform or something else got hung up on the trigger when the gun clearly drops lower into the holster causing the gun to go off. I am not an sig fan boy, don't even own one. As far as the police chief buying 20k on Glock firearms… well the police have a well supported history of them protecting the thin blue line above doing the right thing.

You're a bit late to the party.

 

[Koda]

Mechanical safety vs. training. Take your pick.

You're saying a manual safety would fix this?

This or that is missing the big picture.
Are you guys saying a manual safety would not make any difference?

Caution: falling back on the operator error training part only admits its not Sigs design.