Looking for information on negligent discharge occurrence and brand, type, and position of non duty carry pistols.

[lucusloc]

lucusloc

, feel better, good. I'm glad you got that all out of your system. I took what all you said under advisement and then considered the source and will continue to do as I do.

I mean you keep doing you, no one is going to stop you. But there are a whole lot more sources than just me saying this. Like basically every qualified defensive trainer, law enforcement agency and even military all have moved on from chamber empty carry. You might be able to find a few holdouts, but they will be notable for the difference, and if they are in the professional space likely criticized because of it. It is not like anything I have said is in any way controversial or counter to the prevailing wisdom. Chamber empty carry has its own risks, and similar to just not carrying at all those risks may not be all that great in the vast scheme of things, the consequences if you do need it but don't have it could be dire. All I am doing is pointing out a new paradigm for you, one that is highly worth serous consideration. If you simply refuse that consideration that is on you, and I hope it never has any impact on your life.

 

[Nosferatu]

I mean you keep doing you, no one is going to stop you. But there are a whole lot more sources than just me saying this. Like basically every qualified defensive trainer, law enforcement agency and even military all have moved on from chamber empty carry. You might be able to find a few holdouts, but they will be notable for the difference, and if they are in the professional space likely criticized because of it. It is not like anything I have said is in any way controversial or counter to the prevailing wisdom. Chamber empty carry has its own risks, and similar to just not carrying at all those risks may not be all that great in the vast scheme of things, the consequences if you do need it but don't have it could be dire. All I am doing is pointing out a new paradigm for you, one that is highly worth serous consideration. If you simply refuse that consideration that is on you, and I hope it never has any impact on your life.

I'm surprised anyone drives with a full tank of gas or fills their big-gulp to the brim.

 

[NoLimePlease]

Wouldn't everything about life just be so much better if we could all simply get back to the fanny pack struggle? The fanny pack didn't get a fair shake, I got no problem with another go at it.

 

[washagonian]

Wouldn't everything about life just be so much better if we could all simply get back to the fanny pack struggle? The fanny pack didn't get a fair shake, I got no problem with another go at it.

If fanny pack carry has a renaissance, I'll be first in line.

 

[Jbsheepdog]

Thats the problem I'm having, the six round limitations. So I have been experimenting with bigger options (shield plus) and different carry positions. Hope to keep equipment and training investment focused anywhere other than "try it all til it works", and create direction to my learning curve. But yeah. I don't feel comfortable any longer with the 380

My father pocket carries a Ruger LCP Max, 10-12rds of 380, no external safety. Good 3-4 finger grip and sights like a full size gun
t's a nice option for a 72 year old.

If you want something bigger, look at the Hellcat, P365, or ruger MAX9

Even bigger just get a Glock 19. There's a reason it's the most sold pistol in America.

Just keep your damm fingers off the bang switch. If you follow the firearm safety rules you won't have a problem.

 

[NoLimePlease]

Just a thought, consider carrying mid-size with a fanny pack. I have almost 100% switched to fanny carry with a 4" barrel 357 revolvers or full size Makarovs. The fanny pack is slick for multiple reasons. Reason #1 is that its a fanny pack and you are cool by default if wearing one. #2 they are super practical and confortable. You can rotate them to different positions, they can carry multiple different weapons.

For years I pocket carried a 38 special J frame while wile working in downtown Seattle. That was nice because I was always armed, and in dicey scenarios you can literally have your hand on your gun in your pocket and nobody notices. But my main concern with the small gun is actually putting rounds on target at any distance. Insert the fanny pack, you can carry guns that are actually good at hitting things, and do it with hipster style. Plus, what gun person doesn't like having more pockets? You are literally strapping a socially acceptable pocket on.

If you are hitting what you are aiming at, 6 rounds and spare ammo should be good. It depends on your mentality though. When I was single, working downtown, I regularly went out of my way to chase down robbers, break up fights, call out idiot actions by homeless people and hood rats. Now, as a father of 3 and a husband, I'm not putting my life on the line to save anybody except my family. With that thought, my 5 round revolvers with an extra speed strip should suffice. If I was going out of my way to have tea parties with Antifa or try to talk logic and philosophy to any of the marches downtown, I would lose the advantages that a 4" barrel revolver presents, and a hi-cap gun might be better. But I stay the heck away from those places, and encourage everybody else to do the same.

I'm also talking about wearing fanny packs on the waist as they were/are intended, not this chai-tea drinking over the chest garbage that the hipsters are doing.

Good video for fanny carry:

View: https://youtu.be/W4Ext_yuTS0?si=NV5ajw7dA1fGQ6V_


This is the one I went with, video was spot on, its a good pack for the money, plus lots of colors to dial in your gray-man/hipster presentation: https://www.amazon.com/HELIKON-TEX-...oo0q9H0Luqe__0BSUq49rb9gAIrztmYBoCtxEQAvD_BwE

Consider a big folding knife when/where legal, I include this in my carry routine as well, its about 17" long when unfolded, lots of reach: https://www.bladehq.com/item--Cold-Steel-Espada-Extra-Large--93968

If fanny pack carry has a renaissance, I'll be first in line.

I'm getting a ton of good info here for sure, but the Fanny pack is just turning the light bulb moment into something that can't possibly be as machismo as it would be fun while still requiring the same practice work to not be just as enjoyable.
The renaissance has at least one new member, wish it luck!

 

[Mikej]

My father pocket carries a Ruger LCP Max, 10-12rds of 380, no external safety. Good 3-4 finger grip and sights like a full size gun
t's a nice option for a 72 year old.

If you want something bigger, look at the Hellcat, P365, or ruger MAX9

Even bigger just get a Glock 19. There's a reason it's the most sold pistol in America.

Just keep your damm fingers off the bang switch. If you follow the firearm safety rules you won't have a problem.

I think that, if that little .380 Dad carries is anything like the LC9, a helluva long heavy trigger pull has a lot to do with safety. Been a long time since I found I don't have the hands to work one of those.

 

[pizzamike]

I carry a Glock 17 appendix. Have been doing so for over a decade. No NDs/ADs to this point.

Training is important. ND and AD are 99% human error.

 

[lucusloc]

I'm getting a ton of good info here for sure, but the Fanny pack is just turning the light bulb moment into something that can't possibly be as machismo as it would be fun while still requiring the same practice work to not be just as enjoyable.
The renaissance has at least one new member, wish it luck!

I know a guy who makes really nice leather fannypacks for carry. let me see if I can dig up his contact info for you.

 

[IndyPrepper]

Israeli carry

means carrying a handgun with a full magazine but no round in the chamber. One of the more common ways to carry a handgun in the 20th century, the Israeli carry method is still practiced today by beginners and those who feel it is safer than other methods.

 

[lucusloc]

Israeli carry

means carrying a handgun with a full magazine but no round in the chamber. One of the more common ways to carry a handgun in the 20th century, the Israeli carry method is still practiced today by beginners and those who feel it is safer than other methods.

Already been covered in this thread. I post my rebuttal in post #33. (the other side of that conversation seems to have been removed, but you should get the idea from my replies)

Now I am not going to tell anyone how they must carry. You get to decide what and how you carry. If you like chamber empty then you do you. If you like to carry 22 short that is fine for you too. But I will point out chamber empty carry has dropped out of the prevailing paradigm for good reasons, and is not recommended by any knowledgeable and trusted institution (with very rare exception). Similarly carry of sub-power cartridges is out of favor for very good reasons. It behooves us to understand these reasons and only make exceptions for them under specific and carefully considered circumstances.

If you have some well founded reason to break from the paradigm I would of course agree that it is good to do so. Some gun is better than no gun. But if the only reason to do so is "because I am comfortable with it" then I would advise training as the alternative. Get comfortable with best practices and learn to do those rather than continue to indulge in what are now considered bad habits, ones that could get you into trouble if you ever need your gun for real.

 

[Xaevian]

I'm surprised anyone drives with a full tank of gas or fills their big-gulp to the brim.

A better analogy would be to leave your car running at all times, or never leave the 7-11 so you can refill your big gulp after every drink.

 

[lucusloc]

A better analogy would be to leave your car running at all times, or never leave the 7-11 so you can refill your big gulp after every drink.

I don't think I understand this analogy at all anymore. How does this relate to carrying one in the chamber (so you can deploy with one hand instead of needing two to rack it)?

Or did I miss the reference entirely?

 

[Xaevian]

I don't think I understand this analogy at all anymore. How does this relate to carrying one in the chamber (so you can deploy with one hand instead of needing two to rack it)?

Or did I miss the reference entirely?

Chambered vs unchambered. Risk mitigation is an actual thing. Everyone's risk threshold is different. There are pros and cons to both methods and neither should be discounted nor discouraged based on someone else's preference.

 

[lucusloc]

Chambered vs unchambered. Risk mitigation is an actual thing. Everyone's risk threshold is different. There are pros and cons to both methods and neither should be discounted nor discouraged based on someone else's preference.

Yes, and my point was that chamber loaded is indeed as safe as chamber empty with proper equipment and behavior. My entire argument is education to that point. If you are uncomfortable with chamber loaded carry the best solution is training, not to continue on in what is now considered a bad practice.

Now of course everyone gets to make their own choice on the matter. We are allowed to make sub-optimal choices for whatever reasons we want. But the rest of us are not required to agree that those choices are "just as good," and I honestly feel it is important for people to point out why those choices are considered sub-optimal so people can make fully informed choices, not continue on in ignorance (or even worse spread that ignorance as fact).

 

[IndyPrepper]

Yes, and my point was that chamber loaded is indeed as safe as chamber empty with proper equipment and behavior. My entire argument is education to that point. If you are uncomfortable with chamber loaded carry the best solution is training, not to continue on in what is now considered a bad practice.

Now of course everyone gets to make their own choice on the matter. We are allowed to make sub-optimal choices for whatever reasons we want. But the rest of us are not required to agree that those choices are "just as good," and I honestly feel it is important for people to point out why those choices are considered sub-optimal so people can make fully informed choices, not continue on in ignorance (or even worse spread that ignorance as fact).

I think we get your point..that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Got it.

 

[lucusloc]

I think we get your point..that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Got it.

if you don't have an actual argument for why I am wrong that is ok, not all opinions are created equal. Some of them have actual data to back them up.

 

[IndyPrepper]

if you don't have an actual argument for why I am wrong that is ok, not all opinions are created equal. Some of them have actual data to back them up.

The issue I have with you specifically is it seems you're one of those people who like to argue. You act as if your opinion is the only 'correct' one. Your form of argument is, in my 'subjective' opinion, somewhat infantile.

But since you believe you are right, and everyone else is wrong, I will submit a link that covers BOTH arguments, and let the ignorant masses read as they will.

Israeli Carry

The FACT is..there are some good arguments FOR Israeli carry. And some good arguments AGAINST israeli carry.

That doesn't make you the final arbiter.

 

[Xaevian]

chamber loaded is indeed as safe as chamber empty with proper equipment and behavior.

If you are uncomfortable with chamber loaded carry

We are allowed to make sub-optimal choices for whatever reasons we want

not continue on in ignorance

Word choice, dude. You are clearly biased on this topic and using progressive-style demeaning language to make your opinion the only valid one.

 

[lucusloc]

The issue I have with you specifically is it seems you're one of those people who like to argue. You act as if your opinion is the only 'correct' one. Your form of argument is, in my 'subjective' opinion, somewhat infantile.

But since you believe you are right, and everyone else is wrong, I will submit a link that covers BOTH arguments, and let the ignorant masses read as they will.

Israeli Carry

The FACT is..there are some good arguments FOR Israeli carry. And some good arguments AGAINST israeli carry.

That doesn't make you the final arbiter.

I already covered the pros of Israeli carry. I did acknowledge that they exist. Then I pointed out why they are outdated. Do not straw man my arguments. No one said I was final arbiter either, but facts are facts. And the facts are that if you are not carrying an outdated firearm an/or are not using a holster with inadequate trigger protection then loaded chamber is as safe as chamber empty. Full stop, that is the argument being made here. If you are using either one of those then yeah, you probably should not carry chamber loaded. But I would also argue that you might want to look at upgrading your carry gear if you have the means to do so. That is also on you to sort out for yourself.

Tell me, are you going to make the argument that 6mm Flobert is a viable defensive round? If not then why not? If someone comes along and says "I think 6mm Flobert is great!" are you just going to smile and nod? What if they are giving that advice to some new shooter who may not know what all the issues are? You just going to let that advice stand without context or challenge? What if someone comes up and points out that in the 1850s cartridges like the 6mm Flobert were commonly used in defensive arms? Does that suddenly make them more acceptable as a modern defensive cartridge? Or do all the issues they have with power and penetration still stand?

And if you are going to step in an point out that BB class rimifire cartridges might not be optimal for self defense what is your justification for railing on me now when I am simply pointing out the same issues in another context? Is it not the same kind of argument? Is the only reason because you like 6mm Flobert Israeli carry and your own personal biases are not letting you see the argument being presented?