Negligent Discharge Investigations...follow up thread

[DirectDrive]

I agree. DA/SA for carry guns strikes the sweet spot for me. Striker fired is fine in a level 3 duty holster.

I still am very curious about the Sig issues due to the drop safe issues and the design of the striker. I'm about 60/40 on if they are actually safe to carry and shoot.

The "drop safe" issues were solved in 2017 but it still "lingers" for those that haven't kept up.
Nothing wrong with the striker design.
It has no manual safety and if you're not a careful gun handler you may have problems.

 

[American123]

There have been discussions in a few recent threads regarding NDs and their causes. The recent-ish Sig allegations have inspired me to research this area further. Was speaking with a friend and former co-worker about a recent ND where we used to work and it came up that he was tasked by the department to investigate when one of our officers had a gun that went off when it was not supposed to. He kindly agreed to some questions as to his findings and others he had good first-hand knowledge about. This person is one of the best investigators our department has ever had so I trust his work and opinions.

In every single case he investigated, there was a notable distraction involved before or during the event. Something that took the person's focus off the fact that they were handling a firearm. In none of the cases he personally investigated or knew about was there a malfunction of the firearm. Many of the events involved cleaning (or not clearing a firearm before beginning the act of cleaning). The events involved both revolvers and semi-automatic firearms.

I suspect this is a common cause outside of these investigations as well; losing focus and forgetting you are holding a firearm that can cause severe damage or death. Complacency. Happens with drivers too.

While working with a shooter at the range a few years ago, we were discussing dry fire training at home. We talked about safety (removing ammo, safe direction, no distractions, etc.) and I told this person that, I know it sounds strange but out loud, begin your session by saying, "I am now beginning my dry fire practice." When you are done say, "I have now finished by dry fire practice," put your gun away, and walk away from the area.

I saw a couple shooting down the line and the husband was listing to me talk with the shooter, which was of course fine. When I was done talking, he walked up and politely said, "Do what he says, trust me." He went on to explain that he was doing some dry fire training. Stopped. Loaded his gun and then after some time had elapsed, decided to do a few more with the predictable results. I very much appreciated him sharing this story to help others.

NDs are similar to car crashes in that there are three primary factors that are related to the cause, human, environmental, and mechanical. Just like car crashes, the human factor is nearly always the main culprit. Yes, the environment can present some challenges (walking on uneven terrain, darkness), and rarely is the vehicle/firearm the actual cause (it happens but is mostly only a contributing factor). The main problem is the human factor. And just like with car crashes, humans tend to deny they were at fault (I'm beginning to believe this is the case with the Sig-reported cases).

With the Sig cases I've reviewed, there is sometimes an "environmental" aspect (full-size gun carry in a pocket holster, gear bag slamming against a gun and holster). I also think there are mechanical issues (here comes the hate), striker fired guns with exceptionally light triggers and no manual safety. But the human factor still reigns.

For those of you who have not been privy to my ranting on this topic in other posts, let me state my case on SF guns and safeties. 1911s have a manual safety, a grip safety, and (depending on the model) internal safeties. What we are seeing now are firearms with no manual safety (or it is an option), no grip safety (a few have them), and trigger pull weights that rival that of 1911s or less. Some Sig models are touting 30% reduction in trigger pull weight. Good thing for accuracy, bad thing for NDs. If I told you that I removed the manual safety from my 1911 and duct taped the grip safety down and called it good, I would be labeled an idiot (and I would not disagree). But some do this or worse with an SF gun, put it in a pocket holster, and think they are fine after a concealed handgun class because they are now "trained."

As I ALWAYS say, carry as you wish, but IMHO we should have some intellectual honesty about SF guns without mechanical safeties for carry use, especially with newer shooters. But not always. Check out the interwebs where you will see EXTREMELY popular and often respected "trainers" slamming their SF guns sans safeties back into their holsters. Complacency is rampant in this area as it is easily observable at organized shoots as well. For those who say you will forget to take your safety off...training. It's like saying you will forget to pull the trigger, look at your sights, or find your optic. Train for it.

The safety will help 1) in the holster if you have an issue where something gets in there or your holster breaks and can press the trigger, 2) Coming out of the holster if a finger or something else gets to where it should not, and 3) going back into the holster. This is where many NDs happen. I agree, safeties do not help when you have your gun out and at a time when the safety should be off. Slightly heavier triggers will (according to some studies). Most folks who own guns or carry guns have not had the opportunity to draw a gun or have a gun out in a stressful situation. Some have a few times. Hearing a bump in the night, sure, is stressful, but different than when someone kicks your door in or a crazy guy comes at you with a knife at Walmart (it is usually at a Walmart BTW). Fingers can and will end up in places they are not supposed to be. The aforementioned "distractions" will be present. Adrenaline will be coursing through your veins. Re-holstering may be a complicated task, involving a jacket that you are not used to wearing with those tie cords now dangling dangerously close to the mouth of your holster as your try to get a SF gun with a 3.5# trigger back in its place. Might it be better to have an extra layer of protection from a manual safety at this moment? It is up to each person to decide.

For those (few) of you that got this far, thanks for listening to my thoughts. I've been writing this in my head for about two years now. Again, each person should be free to carry as they wish. But they should also understand that if we choose to do something that carries more risk, we have to accept that responsibility as well (just like carrying a gun adds to the "risk" in some areas but we choose to do so because an honest evaluation of risk to reward/benefit).

The guy who shot his gun, negligently after dry firing, is an idiot.

A simple chamber check before handling a firearm prevents ND's like that, and it doesn't matter even if a person is distracted because their house is on fire, you don't pull the trigger of a firearm with the purpose of dry firing, without checking the chamber first.

ND's happen because the majority of the population are idiots and don't follow the rules of firearm safety 100% of the time. Dry fire practice actually breaks those rules, but it's supposed to be an empty gun so it should be safe, however, the first sentence of this paragraph still applies.

 

[Geardo]

Out of curiosity what difference does the holster make in regards to SF vs DA/SA unless you are concerned with it falling out during an altercation?

Well yes, not so much altercation, but snagged on a sling, branch, seat belt etc, a duty holster will keep it safely holstered. It's just a sidearm, (secondary to a rifle) only deployed if needed right then and there, so the holster becomes a safety of sorts.

Also, when re-holstering it's not pointed directed at my junk or my butt cheeks, and it's also out of the way of most loose clothing and stuff that likes to sneak into CCW holsters.

 

[Member 53328]

Well yes, not so much altercation, but snagged on a sling, branch, seat belt etc, a duty holster will keep it safely holstered. It's just a sidearm, (secondary to a rifle) only deployed if needed right then and there, so the holster becomes a safety of sorts.

Also, when re-holstering it's not pointed directed at my junk or my butt cheeks, and it's also out of the way of most loose clothing and stuff that likes to sneak into CCW holsters.

To each their own.

In regards to AIWB I don't see anything in the first paragraph being an issue with a firearm that doesn't have a safety and is in a quality holster (from my own experience). In regards to OWB in a duty role or concealed I wouldn't carry ANY gun in anything less than a level 3 holster.

I agree 100 percent with garments interfering with holstering a firearm. That's why clearing garment and taking a visual inspection of the holster before holstering is key.

I appreciate your perspective though and will never knock someone for doing what they find to be the safest for them.

I ended up moving away from a specific holster company for that reason. Jumping a fence to help an individual who was having a medical emergency and my pistol had become dislodged and hit the ground. Not my proudest moment. Retention is key. No matter the gun/style/brand.

 

[eustace_stelio]

Hell, most have never been punched in the face.

This right here is what is wrong with much of society.

I'm not advocating wide spread anarchy but if people were still allowed to give well deserved attitude adjustments we would all be better off.

FAFO

 

[DirectDrive]

I agree. DA/SA for carry guns strikes the sweet spot for me. Striker fired is fine in a level 3 duty holster.

I still am very curious about the Sig issues due to the drop safe issues and the design of the striker. I'm about 60/40 on if they are actually safe to carry and shoot.

Level 3 holster is for retention, not for safe firearms handling.
Two different things.

 

[Member 53328]

This right here is what is wrong with much of society.

I'm not advocating wide spread anarchy but if people were still allowed to give well deserved attitude adjustments we would all be better off.

FAFO

Violence is needed in society.

The correct amount and type of violence fixes quite a few problems.

Violence of action.

 

[Geardo]

Level 3 holster is for retention, not for safe firearms handling.
Two different things.

They are related. I've had guns yanked from holsters by branches and such. Not a stretch to imagine one getting into the trigger guard.

 

[Member 53328]

They are related. I've had guns yanked from holsters by branches and such. Not a stretch to imagine one getting into the trigger guard.

While conceal carrying?

 

[Geardo]

While conceal carrying?

No. Separate use cases.

CCW for me = DA/SA or striker with a safety. I currently have a g43 I don't use often at all, but I might switch that out to a 365 with a safety someday.

"Duty" carry like war belt or range= striker fire or whatever, doesn't matter that much to me, because it will be in a lvl 3 holster. I frequently use my CCW DA/SA in that application as well, but I wouldn't shy away from a striker fire in that application.

 

[pdx210]

I just posted a thread about Sig 320 discharge, this one was caught on camera, a holstered sig 320 discharged; luckily, no one was hurt. It's too bad I have two 320s and love to shoot them, but not a for carry or home defense, not trustworthy

Video surveillance from inside the department captured a Montville officer's gun discharging - Google Search

 

[Spitpatch]

This right here is what is wrong with much of society.

I'm not advocating wide spread anarchy but if people were still allowed to give well deserved attitude adjustments we would all be better off.

FAFO

This applies to "Negligent Discharges" of the mouth as well. More and more, it is easy to detect persons whose parents never popped them in the mouth when they said something REALLY stupid (that under certain circumstances makes them deserving of a lot more than a pop in the mouth).

I believe being popped in the mouth for saying stupid stuff as a child has kept me alive.

 

[WillametteWill]

I just posted a thread about Sig 320 discharge, this one was caught on camera, a holstered sig 320 discharged; luckily, no one was hurt. It's too bad I have two 320s and love to shoot them, but not a for carry or home defense, not trustworthy

I posted thoughts on that thread as well. In relation to this thread, my thoughts still hold true. We are seeing this with SF guns without manual safeties. In the video you posted (as other posts and linked videos noted) there were multiple things going on including a gun that appears to be partially out of the holster and then fully seated after discharge which occurred when it looks like the suspect's leg and other officer's bet hits his gun.

There is a big movement to lighter and lighter triggers on SF guns with no mechanical safety. When you Google NDs and Sig you are starting to see law firms floating to the top of the searches. I want to know the truth, but we are not seeing deep dives into the why behind these occurrences. I keep hearing, "My Sig went off while I was doing nothing (followed by a video that disproves this statement), they are unsafe, and by the way, I'm suing Sig."

This in not moving my needle.

 

[zero-verify]

Great article!

 

[coreymet]

I just posted a thread about Sig 320 discharge, this one was caught on camera, a holstered sig 320 discharged; luckily, no one was hurt. It's too bad I have two 320s and love to shoot them, but not a for carry or home defense, not trustworthy

Video surveillance from inside the department captured a Montville officer's gun discharging - Google Search

Yankee Marshal just posted an "in depth" analysis of this incident. With supposedly close-up images of the holster and gun placement in the holster. Not saying I agree with his analysis, nor disagree. Worth a look though surrounding this whole issue of "self-firing".

 

[salmon creek gary]

Yankee Marshal just posted an "in depth" analysis of this incident. With supposedly close-up images of the holster and gun placement in the holster. Not saying I agree with his analysis, nor disagree. Worth a look though surrounding this whole issue of "self-firing".

Time saver: For your viewing convenience, here is the video by Yankee Marshal with its before and after still-picture "proof", along with a lot of chatter. Enjoy.

 

[billdeserthills]

Marine breaks down Air Force ND

Marine machine gunner breaks down the Air Force negligent discharge video

A video circulating on social media appears to show an Air Force security forces troop firing a negligent discharge into a clearing barrel.

taskandpurpose.com

 

[ron]

Great article you have some excellent writing skills. I carry the M&P pistols with a manual safety.
When I am holstering the pistol I always confirm the manual safety is engaged. I shoot
competition with 1911s and working the safety is ingrained in me. Anything catches the trigger
when holstering a SF pistol with no manual safety you can end up with a hole in you. I have taken
some flak for preferring the manual safety SF pistols mostly from the Glock crowd. One reason
I do not like Glocks because they have no manual safety and they are ugly. Flame on brother.

 

[Member 53328]

Great article you have some excellent writing skills. I carry the M&P pistols with a manual safety.
When I am holstering the pistol I always confirm the manual safety is engaged. I shoot
competition with 1911s and working the safety is ingrained in me. Anything catches the trigger
when holstering a SF pistol with no manual safety you can end up with a hole in you. I have taken
some flak for preferring the manual safety SF pistols mostly from the Glock crowd. One reason
I do not like Glocks because they have no manual safety and they are ugly. Flame on brother.

Ugly needs love too.

 

[orygun]

Time saver: For your viewing convenience, here is the video by Yankee Marshal with its before and after still-picture "proof", along with a lot of chatter. Enjoy.

"a lot of chatter" is an understatement....