Negligent Discharge Investigations...follow up thread

[User 1234]

Marine breaks down Air Force ND

Marine machine gunner breaks down the Air Force negligent discharge video

A video circulating on social media appears to show an Air Force security forces troop firing a negligent discharge into a clearing barrel.

taskandpurpose.com

There was definitely a change in screening/quality standards after 9/11 when the demand for SP's increased. Like any job though; the high speed people were promoted and given sensitive assignments. The low-skilled people were transferred into admin slots or put on static fenceline posts.

 

[WillametteWill]

Marine breaks down Air Force ND

It looks like he was manipulating something with his left hand and the right hand may have engaged the trigger. Credit for doing this with the gun pointed in the correct direction (into the barrel). Goes back to multiple failures of the four safety rules (typically) happen before really bad things occur. My knowledge of the manual of arms for an M240 is about the same as that I have with dating Norwegian swimsuit models, which would be zero. Found my beautiful bride first anyway.

Great article you have some excellent writing skills. I carry the M&P pistols with a manual safety.
When I am holstering the pistol I always confirm the manual safety is engaged. I shoot
competition with 1911s and working the safety is ingrained in me. Anything catches the trigger
when holstering a SF pistol with no manual safety you can end up with a hole in you. I have taken
some flak for preferring the manual safety SF pistols mostly from the Glock crowd. One reason
I do not like Glocks because they have no manual safety and they are ugly. Flame on brother.

(The part of your post in red) is something that bothers me and why I included this subject in the thread. The folks on this thread are pretty much the, "carry as you wish" crowd, which I respect and reciprocate. It's when un(firearms)educated people, try and sway someone who wants a manual safety (and has done the research) based on myths and their unwillingness to train and understand that there may be multiple "right" ways of doing things.

And let's be honest, our M&Ps may be a little prettier than Glocks...but not all that much

 

[Defense Minister]

This right here is worth repeating in my opinion. Anyone on T-Rex Arms, GarandThumb, Milspec Mojo, etc. all love to hammer their sidearm back into their holsters, typically without even so much as glancing down at their side. It's one thing that always bothers me about them because they have a large following of younger/inexperienced shooters who may try to emulate such behavior.

Holstering a handgun should be a deliberate process that involves visually checking what is going on during said process. You can be reasonably quick and deliberate at the same time. The "tactical" speed-holstering just seems like a great way to increase the risk of a negligent discharge all for...what? At the point you have your handgun out and it is Condition 1, why such a hurry to put it back away?

Was training my daughter recently as she learns to manipulate her first defensive firearm. I repeatedly stressed with her that if you need to draw your firearm, you need to draw it quickly and efficiently, but when it's time to re-holster there is absolutely no urgency whatsoever. At that point no threat still exists and the fight is over, so just slow down and keep yourself safe!

 

[Koda]

This right here is worth repeating in my opinion. Anyone on T-Rex Arms, GarandThumb, Milspec Mojo, etc. all love to hammer their sidearm back into their holsters, typically without even so much as glancing down at their side. It's one thing that always bothers me about them because they have a large following of younger/inexperienced shooters who may try to emulate such behavior.

Holstering a handgun should be a deliberate process that involves visually checking what is going on during said process. You can be reasonably quick and deliberate at the same time. The "tactical" speed-holstering just seems like a great way to increase the risk of a negligent discharge all for...what? At the point you have your handgun out and it is Condition 1, why such a hurry to put it back away?

Its not in my notes, but iirc when I took a defensive handgun class they taught us not to look when reholstering. They also taught as, as part of the reholstering process to sweep the hand to check for clothing obstruction. I cant recall the exact reason but it was something about not taking your eyes off the threat in case he gets back into the fight.
(similarly we trained to reload with eyes on the threat not the gun...).

 

[WillametteWill]

Its not in my notes, but iirc when I took a defensive handgun class they taught us not to look when reholstering. They also taught as, as part of the reholstering process to sweep the hand to check for clothing obstruction. I cant recall the exact reason but it was something about not taking your eyes off the threat in case he gets back into the fight.
(similarly we trained to reload with eyes on the threat not the gun...).

For LEOs it is a necessary skill. You often need to re-holster to handcuff or do something else, typically while other officers are covering. For armed citizens, not so much. I think it is good to be able to do it but the conditions when armed citizens compared with officers are often different. Most duty holsters are also more kind when re-holstering. It should be exceptionally rare that an armed citizen needs to re-holster when there is a threat present. Because of this, a quick glance down to confirm nothing is obstructing the holster and confirm position is not a big deal.

Agree with reloading, conducted in your "workspace" where just below your vision so if you need to take a quick glance you can (but agree that this should be able to be done blindfolded). I think what you learned in the training is very similar to what I'm saying. Same thing with non-diagnostic malfunction clearances, I recommend training in these so they can be done without looking.

 

[Koda]

I think it is good to be able to do it but the conditions when armed citizens compared with officers are often different. Most duty holsters are also more kind when re-holstering. It should be exceptionally rare that an armed citizen needs to re-holster when there is a threat present. Because of this, a quick glance down to confirm nothing is obstructing the holster and confirm position is not a big deal.

Im recalling it was emphasized in class, as its stuck with me and how I dry fire practice. IMO the reasons would be the same since the police deal with the very same bad guys citizens do. It was a while ago so I wish I had taken better notes on this one... it does seem to be not as big of a deal... I could be wrong on the looking part but for whatever reason all my dryfire practice Ive learned to not look... I can even do it one handed with some cover garments.
They also had each student present their holster for critique (before training) and any holsters that didn't meet standards were discarded. They went over proper holster features and probably the main feature takeaway is it had to stay open on its own.
FWIW they definitely didn't teach to slam the pistol home in a hurry.

 

[Koda]

It was a while ago so I wish I had taken better notes on this one...

@WillametteWill I'm definitely overdue for a class... .

 

[WillametteWill]

They also had each student present their holster for critique (before training) and any holsters that didn't meet standards were discarded.

This is an important component. Many people that are not into guns (like outside this forum) don't know what they don't know about holsters. For any class we do involving holsters we have to frontload students about holster details, especially if they are new to concealed carry. It can be challenging because with all the gun types and variations, it can be difficult to find holsters (locally) for many guns with multiple options being rare. I collect holsters like some people collect shoes. At this point, I generally do not pick bad ones but we all have "that box"...except we have a few of those boxes from the past years.

I think emphasizing the ability to no-look holster is a good thing.

There are plenty of good classes around and it is always beneficial to get information and opinions from others (instructors and students in classes).

 

[Koda]

I think emphasizing the ability to no-look holster is a good thing.

Dont hold me to it as it was a while ago and Im human, all I know is ever since class all my dry fire practice from draw to reholster has been with eyes on target.

There are plenty of good classes around and it is always beneficial to get information and opinions from others (instructors and students in classes).

The class I took was from Oregon Firearms Academy, they told us their curriculum was from Thunder Ranch... Im good with that. Ive learned from this forum there are now other techniques being taught in various classes... some things I wonder why but not gonna argue with professional instructors. Its good to be flexible as techniques can change with technology and time.... that said IMO nothings really changed in CCW pistols since my class though, Glocks still dominate the popular choice and there is still a plethora of poorly designed CCW holsters that are sold at a premium.