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There have been discussions in a few recent threads regarding NDs and their causes. The recent-ish Sig allegations have inspired me to research this area further. Was speaking with a friend and former co-worker about a recent ND where we used to work and it came up that he was tasked by the department to investigate when one of our officers had a gun that went off when it was not supposed to. He kindly agreed to some questions as to his findings and others he had good first-hand knowledge about. This person is one of the best investigators our department has ever had so I trust his work and opinions.

In every single case he investigated, there was a notable distraction involved before or during the event. Something that took the person's focus off the fact that they were handling a firearm. In none of the cases he personally investigated or knew about was there a malfunction of the firearm. Many of the events involved cleaning (or not clearing a firearm before beginning the act of cleaning). The events involved both revolvers and semi-automatic firearms.

I suspect this is a common cause outside of these investigations as well; losing focus and forgetting you are holding a firearm that can cause severe damage or death. Complacency. Happens with drivers too.

While working with a shooter at the range a few years ago, we were discussing dry fire training at home. We talked about safety (removing ammo, safe direction, no distractions, etc.) and I told this person that, I know it sounds strange but out loud, begin your session by saying, "I am now beginning my dry fire practice." When you are done say, "I have now finished by dry fire practice," put your gun away, and walk away from the area.

I saw a couple shooting down the line and the husband was listing to me talk with the shooter, which was of course fine. When I was done talking, he walked up and politely said, "Do what he says, trust me." He went on to explain that he was doing some dry fire training. Stopped. Loaded his gun and then after some time had elapsed, decided to do a few more with the predictable results. I very much appreciated him sharing this story to help others.

NDs are similar to car crashes in that there are three primary factors that are related to the cause, human, environmental, and mechanical. Just like car crashes, the human factor is nearly always the main culprit. Yes, the environment can present some challenges (walking on uneven terrain, darkness), and rarely is the vehicle/firearm the actual cause (it happens but is mostly only a contributing factor). The main problem is the human factor. And just like with car crashes, humans tend to deny they were at fault (I'm beginning to believe this is the case with the Sig-reported cases).

With the Sig cases I've reviewed, there is sometimes an "environmental" aspect (full-size gun carry in a pocket holster, gear bag slamming against a gun and holster). I also think there are mechanical issues (here comes the hate), striker fired guns with exceptionally light triggers and no manual safety. But the human factor still reigns.

For those of you who have not been privy to my ranting on this topic in other posts, let me state my case on SF guns and safeties. 1911s have a manual safety, a grip safety, and (depending on the model) internal safeties. What we are seeing now are firearms with no manual safety (or it is an option), no grip safety (a few have them), and trigger pull weights that rival that of 1911s or less. Some Sig models are touting 30% reduction in trigger pull weight. Good thing for accuracy, bad thing for NDs. If I told you that I removed the manual safety from my 1911 and duct taped the grip safety down and called it good, I would be labeled an idiot (and I would not disagree). But some do this or worse with an SF gun, put it in a pocket holster, and think they are fine after a concealed handgun class because they are now "trained."

As I ALWAYS say, carry as you wish, but IMHO we should have some intellectual honesty about SF guns without mechanical safeties for carry use, especially with newer shooters. But not always. Check out the interwebs where you will see EXTREMELY popular and often respected "trainers" slamming their SF guns sans safeties back into their holsters. Complacency is rampant in this area as it is easily observable at organized shoots as well. For those who say you will forget to take your safety off...training. It's like saying you will forget to pull the trigger, look at your sights, or find your optic. Train for it.

The safety will help 1) in the holster if you have an issue where something gets in there or your holster breaks and can press the trigger, 2) Coming out of the holster if a finger or something else gets to where it should not, and 3) going back into the holster. This is where many NDs happen. I agree, safeties do not help when you have your gun out and at a time when the safety should be off. Slightly heavier triggers will (according to some studies). Most folks who own guns or carry guns have not had the opportunity to draw a gun or have a gun out in a stressful situation. Some have a few times. Hearing a bump in the night, sure, is stressful, but different than when someone kicks your door in or a crazy guy comes at you with a knife at Walmart (it is usually at a Walmart BTW). Fingers can and will end up in places they are not supposed to be. The aforementioned "distractions" will be present. Adrenaline will be coursing through your veins. Re-holstering may be a complicated task, involving a jacket that you are not used to wearing with those tie cords now dangling dangerously close to the mouth of your holster as your try to get a SF gun with a 3.5# trigger back in its place. Might it be better to have an extra layer of protection from a manual safety at this moment? It is up to each person to decide.

For those (few) of you that got this far, thanks for listening to my thoughts. I've been writing this in my head for about two years now. Again, each person should be free to carry as they wish. But they should also understand that if we choose to do something that carries more risk, we have to accept that responsibility as well (just like carrying a gun adds to the "risk" in some areas but we choose to do so because an honest evaluation of risk to reward/benefit).
 
Excellent writing there sir!
I was brought up shooting 1911's and believe a manual safety is a must on my striker fired carry guns. Have been scoffed at by many a person for buying M&P pistols with thumb safety. Even went so far as to find all the necessary parts and install a safety on a Vtac i picked up. Basically same manual of arms as firing my 1911's and works for me.
 
RE OP's post: one of the most articulate, thoughtful, well reasoned and useful posts I read on this site in the past 7 years since I joined the community. Thank you @WillametteWill.

I appreciate your perspective, especially carrying a firearm with a manual safety - but also recognizing and acknowledging that people carry what they feel comfortable with.

My EDC is a striker fired pistol and does not have a manual safety, although I cut my teeth on 9mm, 3rd Gen S&W's with the safety/decocker.

For my EDC and defensively staged pistols, I have chosen to go with a heaver trigger weight - 8 to 9 lbs, versus 5.5 from the factory. I also have installed "The Gadget", aka Langdon Tactical's striker control device, on my EDC (since I don't have a hammer spur to keep my thumb on), specifically to improve the safety of holstering / reholstering the firearm.

I guess my point is - I totally agree with you on the efficacy of carrying an EDC with a manual safety. If I ever decide to change EDC platforms, I seriously will consider a DA/SA, hammer fired pistol with manual safety - there are some excellent options available. But currently, I have over 20 years of training and muscle memory with my current EDC platform and will probably stick with it for a while.

Thanks for an excellent post.
 
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One point of difference in your 1911-with-grip safety-taped comparison is that most striker fired pistols do not have a fully charged striker spring when the trigger is released. The 1911 in your hypothetical does.
 
One point of difference in your 1911-with-grip safety-taped comparison is that most striker fired pistols do not have a fully charged striker spring when the trigger is released. The 1911 in your hypothetical does.
I think the correct comparison in that instance is what is the actual poundage required to pull either trigger.
 
Many years ago....
I was concerned that I might have had a negligent misfire due to complacency and lack of a manual safety.
Boy was I relieved when it came out a red head.
 
Excellent writeup.
After finally acquiring my first "saftyless" striker fired, and considering year's of hearing all the arguments against external safties....
I will always prefer an external thumb safety.
 
I was brought up shooting 1911's and believe a manual safety is a must on my striker fired carry guns. Have been scoffed at by many a person for buying M&P pistols with thumb safety. Even went so far as to find all the necessary parts and install a safety on a Vtac i picked up. Basically same manual of arms as firing my 1911's and works for me.
The M&P Compact is my chosen primary carry platform but I will carry a 1911 on occasion and agree with you on this. The trigger pull is different but they work and feel nearly identical to me.
RE OP's post: one of the most articulate, thoughtful, well reasoned and useful posts I read on this site in the past 7 years since I joined the community. Thank you @WillametteWill.

I appreciate your perspective, especially carrying a firearm with a manual safety - but also recognizing and acknowledging that people carry what they feel comfortable with.

My EDC is a striker fired pistol and does not have a manual safety, although I cut my teeth on 9mm, 3rd Gen S&W's with the safety/decocker.

For my EDC and defensively staged pistols, I have chosen to go with a heaver trigger weight - 8 to 9 lbs, versus 5.5 from the factory. I also have installed "The Gadget", aka Langdon Tactical's striker control device, on my EDC (since I don't have a hammer spur to keep my thumb on), specifically to improve the safety of holstering / reholstering the firearm.

I guess my point is - I totally agree with you on efficacy of carrying an EDC with a manual safety. If I ever decide to change EDC platforms, I seriously will consider a DA/SA, hammer fired pistol with manual safety - there are some excellent options available. But currently, I have over 20 years of training and muscle memory with my current EDC platform and will probably stick with it for a while.

Thanks for an excellent post.
Thank you (all) for the kind words and this is EXACTLY what a responsible thought process looks like. What I hate seeing/hearing is someone at a gun shop telling a person who has never touched a gun, "Oh, the safety is right here ON the trigger, that is all you will ever need." Sigh. Thank you for adding a great example of your thought process!
One point of difference in your 1911-with-grip safety-taped comparison is that most striker fired pistols do not have a fully charged striker spring when the trigger is released. The 1911 in your hypothetical does.
I also do acknowledge that the trigger pull length on a SF gun is usually longer than on a SA gun. This can be a factor as well. Mostly I was considering pure trigger pull weight but I do acknowledge there are some ther factors in play. Thanks for adding this input!
 
Check out the interwebs where you will see EXTREMELY popular and often respected "trainers" slamming their SF guns sans safeties back into their holsters.
This right here is worth repeating in my opinion. Anyone on T-Rex Arms, GarandThumb, Milspec Mojo, etc. all love to hammer their sidearm back into their holsters, typically without even so much as glancing down at their side. It's one thing that always bothers me about them because they have a large following of younger/inexperienced shooters who may try to emulate such behavior.

Holstering a handgun should be a deliberate process that involves visually checking what is going on during said process. You can be reasonably quick and deliberate at the same time. The "tactical" speed-holstering just seems like a great way to increase the risk of a negligent discharge all for...what? At the point you have your handgun out and it is Condition 1, why such a hurry to put it back away?
 
There have been discussions in a few recent threads regarding NDs and their causes. The recent-ish Sig allegations have inspired me to research this area further. Was speaking with a friend and former co-worker about a recent ND where we used to work and it came up that he was tasked by the department to investigate when one of our officers had a gun that went off when it was not supposed to. He kindly agreed to some questions as to his findings and others he had good first-hand knowledge about. This person is one of the best investigators our department has ever had so I trust his work and opinions.

In every single case he investigated, there was a notable distraction involved before or during the event. Something that took the person's focus off the fact that they were handling a firearm. In none of the cases he personally investigated or knew about was there a malfunction of the firearm. Many of the events involved cleaning (or not clearing a firearm before beginning the act of cleaning). The events involved both revolvers and semi-automatic firearms.

I suspect this is a common cause outside of these investigations as well; losing focus and forgetting you are holding a firearm that can cause severe damage or death. Complacency. Happens with drivers too.

While working with a shooter at the range a few years ago, we were discussing dry fire training at home. We talked about safety (removing ammo, safe direction, no distractions, etc.) and I told this person that, I know it sounds strange but out loud, begin your session by saying, "I am now beginning my dry fire practice." When you are done say, "I have now finished by dry fire practice," put your gun away, and walk away from the area.

I saw a couple shooting down the line and the husband was listing to me talk with the shooter, which was of course fine. When I was done talking, he walked up and politely said, "Do what he says, trust me." He went on to explain that he was doing some dry fire training. Stopped. Loaded his gun and then after some time had elapsed, decided to do a few more with the predictable results. I very much appreciated him sharing this story to help others.

NDs are similar to car crashes in that there are three primary factors that are related to the cause, human, environmental, and mechanical. Just like car crashes, the human factor is nearly always the main culprit. Yes, the environment can present some challenges (walking on uneven terrain, darkness), and rarely is the vehicle/firearm the actual cause (it happens but is mostly only a contributing factor). The main problem is the human factor. And just like with car crashes, humans tend to deny they were at fault (I'm beginning to believe this is the case with the Sig-reported cases).

With the Sig cases I've reviewed, there is sometimes an "environmental" aspect (full-size gun carry in a pocket holster, gear bag slamming against a gun and holster). I also think there are mechanical issues (here comes the hate), striker fired guns with exceptionally light triggers and no manual safety. But the human factor still reigns.

For those of you who have not been privy to my ranting on this topic in other posts, let me state my case on SF guns and safeties. 1911s have a manual safety, a grip safety, and (depending on the model) internal safeties. What we are seeing now are firearms with no manual safety (or it is an option), no grip safety (a few have them), and trigger pull weights that rival that of 1911s or less. Some Sig models are touting 30% reduction in trigger pull weight. Good thing for accuracy, bad thing for NDs. If I told you that I removed the manual safety from my 1911 and duct taped the grip safety down and called it good, I would be labeled an idiot (and I would not disagree). But some do this or worse with an SF gun, put it in a pocket holster, and think they are fine after a concealed handgun class because they are now "trained."

As I ALWAYS say, carry as you wish, but IMHO we should have some intellectual honesty about SF guns without mechanical safeties for carry use, especially with newer shooters. But not always. Check out the interwebs where you will see EXTREMELY popular and often respected "trainers" slamming their SF guns sans safeties back into their holsters. Complacency is rampant in this area as it is easily observable at organized shoots as well. For those who say you will forget to take your safety off...training. It's like saying you will forget to pull the trigger, look at your sights, or find your optic. Train for it.

The safety will help 1) in the holster if you have an issue where something gets in there or your holster breaks and can press the trigger, 2) Coming out of the holster if a finger or something else gets to where it should not, and 3) going back into the holster. This is where many NDs happen. I agree, safeties do not help when you have your gun out and at a time when the safety should be off. Slightly heavier triggers will (according to some studies). Most folks who own guns or carry guns have not had the opportunity to draw a gun or have a gun out in a stressful situation. Some have a few times. Hearing a bump in the night, sure, is stressful, but different than when someone kicks your door in or a crazy guy comes at you with a knife at Walmart (it is usually at a Walmart BTW). Fingers can and will end up in places they are not supposed to be. The aforementioned "distractions" will be present. Adrenaline will be coursing through your veins. Re-holstering may be a complicated task, involving a jacket that you are not used to wearing with those tie cords now dangling dangerously close to the mouth of your holster as your try to get a SF gun with a 3.5# trigger back in its place. Might it be better to have an extra layer of protection from a manual safety at this moment? It is up to each person to decide.

For those (few) of you that got this far, thanks for listening to my thoughts. I've been writing this in my head for about two years now. Again, each person should be free to carry as they wish. But they should also understand that if we choose to do something that carries more risk, we have to accept that responsibility as well (just like carrying a gun adds to the "risk" in some areas but we choose to do so because an honest evaluation of risk to reward/benefit).
I recently attended a combat shooting class where I fired around 250 rounds from my 1911 in combat situations. In all cases, when I drew my pistol from its holster the manual safety was engaged, and the grip safety needed to be depressed. I never once thought about activating or deactivating either of those safeties. It's a matter of training. All of my pistols have the same controls located in exactly the same places. Training with one of them is training with all of them. It is now automatic any time I pick up a semi-automatic pistol.
 
Last Edited:
This right here is worth repeating in my opinion. Anyone on T-Rex Arms, GarandThumb, Milspec Mojo, etc. all love to hammer their sidearm back into their holsters, typically without even so much as glancing down at their side. It's one thing that always bothers me about them because they have a large following of younger/inexperienced shooters who may try to emulate such behavior.

Holstering a handgun should be a deliberate process that involves visually checking what is going on during said process. You can be reasonably quick and deliberate at the same time. The "tactical" speed-holstering just seems like a great way to increase the risk of a negligent discharge all for...what? At the point you have your handgun out and it is Condition 1, why such a hurry to put it back away?
You can't holster fast enough to win a gun fight...

Joe
 
My EDC is kept in an IWB holster at all times, even when in the safe, such as going someplace I can't carry. P365, no safety. Other than when practising from the holster at the range, I always remove the pistol and holster together before taking the pistol from said holster (such as to show it to someone, or to clean it or whatever). Always conscious of muzzle, booger hook and clothing, etc.

I have no issue carrying a pistol with a safety, really like my 1911, just that the p365 is my EDC for now (and same care applies, safety or no).

Really like your way of putting this post together. Highlights that situational awareness is not just about your surroundings, but also the little things we all do that for most people are routine, but deserve focus and mindfulness (like paying attention so that you get butter perfectly spread on ALL the toast, not just a lump in the middle 😉).
 
Articulated very well. Thank you.

I read all the way to the end (painful for this Marine to say the least).

I'm still gunna carry a Glock with one in the chamber. With that said, I don't knock anyone for wanting an external safety on their carry gun. Whatever gives someone more confidence and will allow them to carry with peace of mind.
 
Articulated very well. Thank you.

I read all the way to the end (painful for this Marine to say the least).

I'm still gunna carry a Glock with one in the chamber. With that said, I don't knock anyone for wanting an external safety on their carry gun. Whatever gives someone more confidence and will allow them to carry with peace of mind.
I started regularly carrying sidearms back in the 80's with my issued 1911A1, then in the late 80's I swapped to the 92F, and rejected (out of hand) that new fangled Austrian (and stupid looking Gen. 1) plastic POS that had no external safety….. fast forward (over) a couple of decades: I've been EDC-ing an Austrian G-gun of one sort or another (in 45ACP or 9mm) since 4/24/2011 (yeah, that's the exact date) with nary an issue, nor even a "close call".

It's all about consistent proficiency and actually being "engaged" in your weapons handling practices.


Oh yeah, and not being a DA… :rolleyes:
 
Last Edited:
I started regularly carrying sidearms back in the 80's with my issued 1911A1, then in the late 80's I swapped to the 92F, and rejected (out of hand) that new fangled Austrian (and stupid looking Gen. 1) plastic POS that had no external safety….. fast forward (almost) a couple of decades: I've been EDC-ing an Austrian G-gun of one sort or another (in 45ACP or 9mm) since 4/24/2011 (yeah, that's the exact date) with nary an issue, nor even a "close call".

It's all about consistent proficiency and actually being "engaged" in your weapons handling practices.


Oh yeah, and not being a DA… :rolleyes:
The not being a DA is key.



It's also not a good excuse. Lol.
 
I can see the OP's point and newer gun owners may very well be better off with a thumb safety.


However….


G17 Gen 3 is my go to. Always one in the chamber. I'm 100% comfortable with it as well as my Beretta or a 1911 or a revolver.

I've trained with all of them just like I've used tools all of my life and never cut a finger off.

Doesn't matter to me what you do as long as it doesn't affect my life.

As for Glocks they do have 3 internal safety's and if you keep your bugger picker out of the trigger guard and are self aware enough to know where your muzzle is 100% of the time then there is absolutely nothing wrong with any 'unmodified' factory handgun 99.99%+ of the time. With that last 0.01% or less of the time being a random fluke.

You shouldn't run a chainsaw without proper training or PPE either and cutting down trees is more than just cutting thru one.

Get educated, practice and have confidence without bravado.

Just my 2¢
 

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