Laser or Light for Home Defense? Which would you get?

[Gunner3456]

Another cheap and handy solution is to buy some inexpensive motion sensors and put them on lamps throughout the house, and even on some overhead lights if needed. That way if a BG is wandering through the house, he's turning lights onto himself everywhere he goes. You know where the switches are so you can turn lights off around yourself.

I really don't plan on going through my house looking for a BG, but then we don't have kids at home in other rooms needing protection. There's just the two of us and I'd try to hunker down and let the BG come to me. Possessions aren't worth the danger of a gunfight to me, and they are insured.

If the BG isn't deterred by the motion sensing outside lights, or the alarm, or the dogs barking, or the lights following him around inside the house, then I'll have to deal with him when he comes to me, on my terms.

About lasers, I really like them for getting off quick shots without having to align a sight picture, but that's just my personal preference. They work for me, especially the LaserMax guide rod laser.

$.02

 

[Will]

What about a light/laser combo? I have one on my S&W M&P 45, seems like a good all around choice although I rarley use the laser.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/reviews/reviews-streamlight-tlr2-weapon-mounted-flashlight-laser.html

 

[Gunner3456]

When I was really little, maybe 2nd or 3rd grade, Dad and the men took me deer hunting. Of course I didn't have a gun. We took a break and the men leaned their rifles up against trees.

Suddenly I saw a couple of other hunters way across on another ridge. I grabbed one of the rifles to use the scope to get a better look. Man, did I get a butt chewing!!!! You don't point a gun at something you don't want to kill!!

Lesson learned and red face long gone.

I can't reconcile that early training with having a light on a gun for clearing a house or anything else. My teaching says have the separate light in the other hand.

Comments?

 

[dobeman]

Itac WLL1 gives you both, easy to use, lower price than Streamlight. I picked one up new on ebay for $150.

here it is on my PO7 Duty

 

[willseeker]

Itac WLL1 gives you both, easy to use, lower price than Streamlight. I picked one up new on ebay for $150.

here it is on my PO7 Duty

Is that LED?

Do you have a holster that accepts the gun and light?

Will

 

[dobeman]

Is that LED?

Do you have a holster that accepts the gun and light?

Will

yes, LED - can strobe or constant. And red laser. I do not have a holster for gun with tac light.

 

[taylor]

Thats all a scam. Use no lights, they pin-point where you are. They're military-police stuff for clearing combat sites. Make sure your weapon is non reflective black, even a glint off a stainless gun or trigger could tell him your location. Stay in the dark. Learn to shoot without aiming. Buy low flash/low recoil/ high damage ammo from Buffalo Bullets. Imagine shooting moments after waking, work from that angle.
Taylor

 

[BigNickShooting]

I have a Viridan Green laser (X5L) which is their general purpose light and laser (work with most of the Piccattiny rail guns. I love it ... If you sight it in @ 15-20yds you don't need any other sights you can fire from any position just by aiming your laser at your target. It is strong enough to illuminate your target but if you want more light (like the strobe effect) you can turn on the light and hence, blind your target ...

They also make just the laser version that can be activated ambidextrous ... Love it ... At night you can see that green laser at 200 yds and more ... IF you watch Rob Pincus' self-defense videos and the Sig Sauer Fire Training Accademy videos you will notice that in many instances your target is 5yds away and you might need to fire at your target without being able to sight in your target ... many times you fire from the "cowboy hip" position, or around a barricade ... then you cannot line up your eyes with your sights and your target ...

 

[FlyGuy]

laser

 

[byron]

I have the tlr2 i love it on my g22 nothing like a big round light shining on you with a red dot in the middel of it,but if you have limited funds go for the light,if a night incounter happens you wont know what the red dots on the couch or the bad guy??? like they say be shur of your target, happy shooting

 

[Bruce]

I carry a hand held light as my primary light with my weapon light as a back up to my "seeking light". If my hand held light goes down or is lost (how many of us have needed a flashlight and found the batteries dead). Also, if things go bad you can drop the hand held flashlight and move away from it hoping your BG will concentrate on it.
The other school of thought is having had your light on, when you turn your light off you are just as night blind as the BG. This is very rich "what if" subject.

Bruce.

 

[Boats]

Maybe a light or laser on the pistol shouldn't be our main focus.

Something people aren't really talking about are other options besides pistols when it comes to defending their home. This means our defense weapon doesn't have to be concealable or easily portable. In other words a rifle or shotgun is the better weapon for the circumstances for most. I personally change it up from pistol, rifle, and shotgun for my main weapon. Each have their benefits. Rifle is my first choice if I had no other choice because of precision, capacity, recoil, and ease of reload. If you are using the right loads with .223 not only are you capable of far more precision shot than say a pistol or shotgun but with the right loading it will also penetrate far less through walls than the typical 9mm. Many law enforcement departments have gone to the .223 in TAP rounds over shotguns for instance and one reason is for the less liability. 9mm and .45 will penetrate through more wallboards than .223 and 00 Buck. You also have the the possible errant pellet(s) with the shotgun so I say that is another plus for the rifle. I'm not saying the average .308 ball ammo is the best choice for containment within the house. But I do say it is possible IMO that even 308 in TAP is a possible good choice over a handgun round.


interesting video ----> http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm

<broken link removed>

Not more of this AR "home defense" fantasy. . .

I could give a flying rip what the police are using or doing. If the cops accidentally zap someone because their round doesn't in fact break up in enough drywall to be non-lethal on a miss, (i.e. doesn't fragment to nothing on the second sheet of a wall) and actually deviates unpredictably after striking drywall, all they're going to wind up doing is paying out some taxpayer or insurance funds to the survivors and a letter may wind up in someone's personnel file.

Points against the AR in the home defense role:

Even the shorties are more awkward than a true pistol.
Even the shorties are a two handed affair. Who's opening your doors? Who is holding your flashlight? Flicking your lights? Dialing your phone? Cops use the rifle in teams. Who is your team?

The sights on an AR are in poor relation to the bore, especially at short range. If you are using a red dot or a reflex or other optic, you are likely battery dependent for basic sighting in the dark unless it is one of the tritium doodads.

5.56 indoors suffers from the same drawbacks as the .357 Magnum indoors does. Too much noise and too much flash.

In many areas of the country, using a AR, even in a righteous shoot, is going to be second guessed a lot harder by the authorities than if you popped the bad guy with a S&W Model 10.

But whatever, dudes running courses and dudes selling magazines and dudes selling ARs need to make some money selling this particular Tony Montana fantasy.

 

[willseeker]

Right on Boats! Never even considered a rifle as a HD weapon.

Does anyone have a flashlight they really think is the best to use in tandem with a handgun?

At this point, it seems to make the most sense to have two, one mounted on the handgun and one handheld.

Will

 

[soberups]

I dont believe in putting anything on my gun. I like to keep things simple.

Remember that the dark works both ways. You can hide in the dark. If you have been sleeping, your pupils are dilated and to some extent you can see in the dark. You can find your way around your own home better than an intruder in the dark.

By using artifical light, you have negated these advantages.

In my home, there is no realistic self-defense scenario that would involve a shot of more than 4 or 5 yards. At that range I dont need sights to make a torso hit, and if I am using my sights the muzzle flash will blind me.

I'm not talking about firing blind. I have dogs that will wake me up if someone comes in, and I can tell by the way they act if its a family member. And anyone who has a key to my home knows better than to come in in the middle of the night without identifying themselves first.

 

[scharmon]

I picked up a Coast LED Lenser 7736TS Convertible Tactical Light for $50 on sale. I use it as a hand held in conjunction with my weapon. Very impressed with the lumens at 83, adjustable beam, light weight at 5.4 ounces and its ability to attach to my AR as well. It is also pretty good as just a flashlight with 100 hour battery life.

 

[gunnoob75]

Boats, not that I disagree with your opinion on an AR for home defence for most people, all of your negatives to home defense are training issues.

A rifle is always more accurate than a pistol. How is a rifle "More ackward"? Just train using your rifle indoors. You'll see it's not awkward at all.

You can open doors and use flashlights while holding a rifle. The pistol grip gives you good leverage on the gun.

Sights in relation to the bore is, again, a training issue. Although, at 10 yards, it won't matter. Unless you're shooting over the shoulder of the guy infront of you. Red dots are just as high over bore as the irons. Some (If not most) people mount them up even slightly higher than that. The height over bore really is a non-issue. In relation to battery dependence, Aimpoints last for years being left turned on 24/7. The smallest aimpoint, the T-1, boasts a five year always-on life span. The M4, using the much bigger AA, puts that to shame. I don't have the exact number on hand, though.

I'm not really worried about noise from an AR. On one hand, it's a "Who cares, I am engaging someone...", and the other, it's training yourself for the concussion of shooting indoors.

As far as the judge, I don't care. Not my issue. A valid point otherwise, though.

With all of this said, and having extensive training with the AR platform indoors, I still grab a pistol from the night stand. Because, in reality, you probably won't need the firepower of the rifle.

But it certainly doesn't give you the right to be so disrespectful to people who DO choose the platform for home deference. Especially with your obvious lack of formal training/knowlege on the gun.

So be careful slamming all these people and their "Tony Montana" fantasy. There is no reason for you to be disrespectful like that.

 

[Boats]

Boats, not that I disagree with your opinion on an AR for home defence for most people, all of your negatives to home defense are training issues.

Having actually boarded strange watercraft for keeps in the midst of the Iran-Iraq War as we were escorting Kuwaiti tankers against Iranian interdiction and using M-14s, M-16A2s, M870s, and 1911A1s for the task, I find myself to have absorbed enough "training" to say that the AR isn't the best choice for home defense under most realistic circumstances short of full scale dynamic invasion.

A rifle is always more accurate than a pistol. How is a rifle "More ackward"? Just train using your rifle indoors. You'll see it's not awkward at all.

I have used long weapons in even tighter places than the average homeowner faces. I have seen ridiculous notions on the internet that go, "Look at your arms extended--just about as long as a carbine's muzzle out there," that are so preposterous as to defy belief. Yes, folks with handguns clearing their own houses do so prancing about in the modern isosceles or weaver stances, all out, all the time, rigid like a rifle barrel. It amounts to people selling training pimping this popular rifle for a role it is less than ideal for when one guy has to do it all.

You can open doors and use flashlights while holding a rifle. The pistol grip gives you good leverage on the gun.

I'm sorry, but a one man stick with a rifle and 100&#37; AOR on every tactical movement, with something occupying his other hand, is ridiculous. With a pistol gripped rifle one does indeed enjoy leverage to perform many of the tasks involved in successfully navigating a house, but not really at the same time as being "more accurate than a handgun." If you are practicing good trigger discipline, your index finger is out of the game for the most part and you are swinging around a single action triggered 6.5-9.5 pound rifle with three fingers and a thumb either hot or on safe. Imagine someone saying, "I have good leverage on my Benelli M4 when opening doors." That statement would not be amusing because of the mental picture of some poor sap lighting off #00 Buck one handed and suffering recoil, it's visually funny imagining this super hero leveraging his seven or eight pound weapon into action and getting off a solidly aimed shot one handed that does it.

IMO a handgun is more versatile for one man search and snap firing one handed both strong and weak side as demanded by the layout and the nature of any concealment or cover you may have. Rifles and shotguns are best left for grabbing to run outside to engage someone who needs stopping, or for making a dominant fixed point defense at a good bottleneck within one's home, not for clearing it from one end to the other dynamically.

When by one's self, going across the threshold of a doorway, or getting caught looking the wrong way in your one man tactical formation, when a "Whoops, should have taken the knob side on that door rather than the hinge side" surprise intruder is now present--turns a long gun from a strength into a liability--especially if it is currently being held one handed and one is not slung in at all. There is more weapon to wrestle with and more leverage that can be applied against you hand to hand if you get surprised. These precise issues are why the point in a clearing team is oftentimes a handgunner--Someone has to get the door, usually by trying the doorknob first--unless of course you enjoy breaching walls or kicking in your own doors to check out bumps in the night.

Sights in relation to the bore is, again, a training issue. Although, at 10 yards, it won't matter. Unless you're shooting over the shoulder of the guy infront of you. Red dots are just as high over bore as the irons. Some (If not most) people mount them up even slightly higher than that. The height over bore really is a non-issue.

I agree that it is not an issue at 10 yards. Do you have a lot of thirty foot long rooms in your house? If so, congratulations Bruce Wayne on the size of your stately manor. The disparity between sights and bore could be an issue at seven FEET when cw009 takes his "precision shot" at the BG's noggin over where he thinks his loved one's brachial artery runs through her shoulder. I'd rather take a >THISclose< money shot with a trusted handgun than any rifle with much higher than bore axis sights like an AR or AK. In fact, many of those "formally trained" high speed low drag types will employ handguns for precision room clearing where hostages are in harm's way. They must be wasting time and money that could be spent more usefully when they do that.

In relation to battery dependence, Aimpoints last for years being left turned on 24/7. The smallest aimpoint, the T-1, boasts a five year always-on life span. The M4, using the much bigger AA, puts that to shame. I don't have the exact number on hand, though.

Most AR owners run Tascos and BSAs, not Aimpoints, Trijicons, and EOTechs.

I'm not really worried about noise from an AR. On one hand, it's a "Who cares, I am engaging someone...", and the other, it's training yourself for the concussion of shooting indoors.

Your not caring about noise and flash when most such encounters will occur at night doesn't make such things a non-factor.

As far as the judge, I don't care. Not my issue. A valid point otherwise, though.

Legal training isn't a big topic at "tactical" rifle classes.

With all of this said, and having extensive training with the AR platform indoors, I still grab a pistol from the night stand. Because, in reality, you probably won't need the firepower of the rifle.

Use what you'd like, it's the rifle evangelism from certain quarters I have a serious concern about.

But it certainly doesn't give you the right to be so disrespectful to people who DO choose the platform for home deference. Especially with your obvious lack of formal training/knowlege on the gun.

You don't know a damn thing about me other than that I am a self-confessed opinionated S.O.B. I've humped plenty of long guns in plenty of tight spaces, under real world stress. Play live action Rainbow 6 with classmates all you want, but it is unrealistic and possibly irresponsible advice to spread around that clearing one's castle by one's self with a rifle is the bee's knees just because you can buy TAP for your poodle shooter.

So be careful slamming all these people and their "Tony Montana" fantasy. There is no reason for you to be disrespectful like that.

Just calling it like I see it.

 

[Gunner3456]

-snip-


I agree that it is not an issue at 10 yards. Do you have a lot of thirty foot long rooms in your house? If so, congratulations Bruce Wayne on the size of your stately manor. The disparity between sights and bore could be an issue at seven FEET when cw009 takes his "precision shot" at the BG's noggin over where he thinks his loved one's brachial artery runs through her shoulder. I'd rather take a >THISclose< money shot with a trusted handgun than any rifle with much higher than bore axis sights like an AR or AK. In fact, many of those "formally trained" high speed low drag types will employ handguns for precision room clearing where hostages are in harm's way. They must be wasting time and money that could be spent more usefully when they do that.

As a matter of fact I do. I resent the one-size fits all approach. I have a 3 story house and some potential 60 foot indoor shots. I have two 5' wide staircases and 3 floors to concern myself with.

I also resent "If so, congratulations Bruce Wayne on the size of your stately manor." I think you're too big for your britches.

I can pump a lot of rounds into someone in a hurry with an AR, and that's a fact. I'm not saying that I'd for sure choose an AR, but I'd choose a long gun and perhaps a defensive shotty.

Also I have acreage I might need to defend, and in a SHTF situation, I might be sorry I didn't grab a long gun, especially if that bump in the night in the house was accompanied by a gang surrounding my house.

You simply can't judge everyone's situation without seeing it. We get WAY too much of the "one-size-fits-all" approach here from people who know it all and who have inflexible thinking.

 

[Boats]

As a matter of fact I do. I resent the one-size fits all approach. I have a 3 story house and some potential 60 foot indoor shots. I have two 5' wide staircases.

I also resent "If so, congratulations Bruce Wayne on the size of your stately manor." I think you're too big for your britches.

I can pump a lot of rounds into someone in a hurry with an AR, and that's a fact. I'm not saying that I'd for sure choose an AR, but I'd choose a long gun and perhaps a defensive shotty.

Also I have acreage I might need to defend, and in a SHTF situation, I might be sorry I didn't grab a long gun.

You simply can't judge everyone's situation without seeing it. We get WAY too much of the "one-size-fits-all" approach here from people who know it and and with inflexible thinking.

I am not "advocating" anything, other than that nascent shooters should be spared rifle evangelism unless they have range needs similar to yours.

I am saying that there is a very detectable one size fits all approach from the rifle acolytes too.

 

[gunnoob75]

I can't keep the quote thing going with long posts.

I see your points, and do not entirely disagree. But training and experience can make up for almost 100&#37; of your points. The only big thing I see, is that ten yards is not far. It's 25 yards from my bedroom to my front door. 20 yards from the bedroom door. And we live in an apartment. A nice one, but not a huge one by any stretch.

You're right, most people aren't walking around with their arms extended when using a pistol. That also means they're not using their sights.

Generally, pistol groups are terrible. This is not a rule, obviously. I shoot pistols quite well, but go to a basic defensive pistol class, and take notes of the groups on paper. Now, add in that they're apparently not even using sights (Because they would need the gun at eye-level. And if it's within' an inch of their face, they'll get blow back from the slide, or even hit in the face with the slide.). What would the groups be? Now, add in the "flinch" as they see a dark figure as they turn a corner in their house. It's worst than a 2" group. So I would imagine the 2" POA/POI difference at 5 feet from a rifle still doesn't account for much.

Rifles are absurdly easy to shoot compared to pistols. And as such, the AR platform is a great choice. Nothing "Tony Montana" about it.