Interesting Thoughts from Reason on Guns, Violence and Mental Illness

[Wombat of Doom]

Mom seeks help.
Doctors office ( nurse practitioner ) calls cops.
Cops take her to ER
Social Worker ... has power to keep her for 72 hours, to take her baby, to ruin her life.

This is not uncommon FWIW.

Here is the usual follow up in my experience. (And in Oregon it is longer than 72 hours, 5 business days)

Option 1:
I see Mom.
Mom is dangerously suicidal.
Inpatient admission.
medication regimen started, improvement seen, home again.

Option 2, which is far more common:
I see mom.
MD or NP was being over-cautious.
I ask her if she wants some food and a drink while I call the MD.
I call the MD.
County investigator comes by and drops hold after talking to patient, MD and sometimes me.
We make an appointment with a new PCP.
We get her a ride home.

 

[justcuz]

No that is not fully correct.
In the councilors opinion.

My friend is a councilor, MS degree, is a mandatory reporter. HIPAA does not preclude her from calling the cops.

Say you go thru your employers assistance program to get counseling for depression - say you just had a baby. That would be a very normal thing. But the councilor you get might ask if there are guns in the house, because they are doing that (even general doctors ask that) depression + gun = ??? to the councilor that might equal you being a danger to your self.

Apparently there are some in the profession (spectrum) who are covered by full confidentiality, but I don't have a clear understanding of how you would know who they are.

According to WA DHS site,
Mandatory Reporters are professionals identified by law who MUST make a report if they have reason to believe that the abuse, abandonment, neglect, or financial exploitation of a vulnerable adult has occurred. Mandatory reporters are:
Employees of the Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS).
Law Enforcement.
Social Workers.
Professional School Personnel.
Contracted Individual Providers (?) caring for a DSHS client.
Employees of a social service, welfare, mental health, home care, hospice, home health, adult day care, and adult day health agency.
Owners or employees of nursing homes, boarding homes, or adult family homes.
Health Care Providers subject to Title 18 RCW (such as nurses and doctors).
Christian Science Practitioner.

Notice MH Counselor, e.g., clinical psychologist, psychotherapist, Marriage and Family therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor isn't listed and of interest:
Children:
RCW 26.44.030(1)(a) doesn't mandate MH counselor:
"When any practitioner, county coroner or medical examiner, law enforcement officer, professional school personnel, registered or licensed nurse, social service counselor, psychologist, pharmacist, employee of the department of early learning, licensed or certified child care providers or their employees, employee of the department, juvenile probation officer, placement and liaison specialist, responsible living skills program staff, HOPE center staff, state family and children's ombuds or any volunteer in the ombuds's office, or host home program has reasonable cause to believe that a child has suffered abuse or neglect, he or she shall report such incident, or cause a report to be made, to the proper law enforcement agency or to the department as provided in RCW 26.44.040. "

Adults:
RCW 74.34.020 (14) doesn't mandate MH counselors:
"Mandated reporter" is an employee of the department; law enforcement officer; social worker; professional school personnel; individual provider; an employee of a facility; an operator of a facility; an employee of a social service, welfare, mental health, adult day health, adult day care, home health, home care, or hospice agency; county coroner or medical examiner; Christian Science practitioner; or health care provider subject to chapter 18.130 RCW."

Duty to warn:
2017:
"The Washington State Supreme Court has ruled that mental health professionals have a duty to protect and warn potential victims of violence by patients under their care even in cases where there were no potential victims named.
In Volk v. DeMeerleer, the state's high court expanded the Tarasoff standard regarding a mental health professional's duty to protect and warn a third party of possible violence, ruling that the duty extends to any possible victim, including those not specifically identified.

The decision creates a new category of "medical negligence," making clinicians in Washington state potentially liable if it is determined that they should have known that someone would be a victim of violence. The ruling affects only mental health professionals licensed in Washington state.

The case involved a Spokane resident in therapy with a bipolar diagnosis who killed his girlfriend and her two sons before killing himself in 2010. He had not mentioned the murder threat during therapy and a lower court had thrown out a civil suit against the psychiatrist. An appeals court, however, held that "those with specials powers, skills and knowledge gained through the doctor-patient relationship must protect society at large from dangerous persons."

Mental health professionals see the decision as an alarming development in Washington law. In their appellate briefs the Washington State Psychological Association argued that the decision would result in an impossible burden on mental health professionals, since scientific evidence demonstrates the difficulty, if not impossibility, of predicting violent behavior.

Apparently, by RCW, MH professionals only have a mandated report to accomplish "Duty To Warn" criteria. That stated, if MH professionals work for a social service they may prescribe reporting to authorities for child and adult abuse.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

According to WA DHS site,
Mandatory Reporters are professionals identified by law who MUST make a report if they have reason to believe that the abuse, abandonment, neglect, or financial exploitation of a vulnerable adult has occurred. Mandatory reporters are:
Employees of the Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS).
Law Enforcement.
Social Workers.
Professional School Personnel.
Contracted Individual Providers (?) caring for a DSHS client.
Employees of a social service, welfare, mental health, home care, hospice, home health, adult day care, and adult day health agency.
Owners or employees of nursing homes, boarding homes, or adult family homes.
Health Care Providers subject to Title 18 RCW (such as nurses and doctors).
Christian Science Practitioner.

Notice MH Counselor, e.g., clinical psychologist, psychotherapist, Marriage and Family therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor isn't listed and of interest:
Children:
RCW 26.44.030(1)(a) doesn't mandate MH counselor:
"When any practitioner, county coroner or medical examiner, law enforcement officer, professional school personnel, registered or licensed nurse, social service counselor, psychologist, pharmacist, employee of the department of early learning, licensed or certified child care providers or their employees, employee of the department, juvenile probation officer, placement and liaison specialist, responsible living skills program staff, HOPE center staff, state family and children's ombuds or any volunteer in the ombuds's office, or host home program has reasonable cause to believe that a child has suffered abuse or neglect, he or she shall report such incident, or cause a report to be made, to the proper law enforcement agency or to the department as provided in RCW 26.44.040. "

Adults:
RCW 74.34.020 (14) doesn't mandate MH counselors:
"Mandated reporter" is an employee of the department; law enforcement officer; social worker; professional school personnel; individual provider; an employee of a facility; an operator of a facility; an employee of a social service, welfare, mental health, adult day health, adult day care, home health, home care, or hospice agency; county coroner or medical examiner; Christian Science practitioner; or health care provider subject to chapter 18.130 RCW."

Duty to warn:
2017:
"The Washington State Supreme Court has ruled that mental health professionals have a duty to protect and warn potential victims of violence by patients under their care even in cases where there were no potential victims named.
In Volk v. DeMeerleer, the state's high court expanded the Tarasoff standard regarding a mental health professional's duty to protect and warn a third party of possible violence, ruling that the duty extends to any possible victim, including those not specifically identified.

The decision creates a new category of "medical negligence," making clinicians in Washington state potentially liable if it is determined that they should have known that someone would be a victim of violence. The ruling affects only mental health professionals licensed in Washington state.

The case involved a Spokane resident in therapy with a bipolar diagnosis who killed his girlfriend and her two sons before killing himself in 2010. He had not mentioned the murder threat during therapy and a lower court had thrown out a civil suit against the psychiatrist. An appeals court, however, held that "those with specials powers, skills and knowledge gained through the doctor-patient relationship must protect society at large from dangerous persons."

Mental health professionals see the decision as an alarming development in Washington law. In their appellate briefs the Washington State Psychological Association argued that the decision would result in an impossible burden on mental health professionals, since scientific evidence demonstrates the difficulty, if not impossibility, of predicting violent behavior.

Apparently, by RCW, MH professionals only have a mandated report to accomplish "Duty To Warn" criteria. That stated, if MH professionals work for a social service they may prescribe reporting to authorities for child and adult abuse.

That is worrying because it is quite impossible. I can't warn un-named parties. If someone has a desire to harm random strangers, I can't warn every random stranger. I can alert their MD and see if they can be kept on a hold...

 

[justcuz]

That is worrying because it is quite impossible. I can't warn un-named parties. If someone has a desire to harm random strangers, I can't warn every random stranger. I can alert their MD and see if they can be kept on a hold...

thank goodness your paranoid state is in the paranoid state, huh

 

[ZigZagZeke]

This is not uncommon FWIW.

Here is the usual follow up in my experience. (And in Oregon it is longer than 72 hours, 5 business days)

Option 1:
I see Mom.
Mom is dangerously suicidal.
Inpatient admission.
medication regimen started, improvement seen, home again.

Option 2, which is far more common:
I see mom.
MD or NP was being over-cautious.
I ask her if she wants some food and a drink while I call the MD.
I call the MD.
County investigator comes by and drops hold after talking to patient, MD and sometimes me.
We make an appointment with a new PCP.
We get her a ride home.

With Option #1, is there a sanity hearing involved at some point?

 

[bbbass]

Years back, one of my two brothers was having trouble in his marriage. He had found evidence of his then wife, a college professor, having an extramarital affair with one of her college age students. After he confronted her, she called her brother, who worked as a Sheriffs Deputy, and accused my bro of being "delusional" and a danger to her. He was taken from their home and placed in a mental facility for days on end. After many interviews with doctors and police, he was released but forbidden to live in his own home.

A few months later, he got a call from his then wife saying he should come over and pick up his stuff. He went there, along with a local city police officer. While there, he was confronted by several deputies and again put on a hold. The local cop said he couldn't do anything about it. After a 3 day hold, my bro was again released.

In some cases it doesn't take much to get someone institutionalized. Why then can we not put a hold on persons that are repeatedly threatening others? But be careful out there fellow gun owners... don't pizz off the wife!!!

 

[Wombat of Doom]

With Option #1, is there a sanity hearing involved at some point?

No, because this assumes that you don't get to a commitment hearing. It takes a LOT to get there. There are a lot of ways things can expand from there, but I have yet to see PPD go there.

Also, as I understand it, that would not effect your 2a rights either.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Years back, one of my two brothers was having trouble in his marriage. He had found evidence of his then wife, a college professor, having an extramarital affair with one of her college age students. After he confronted her, she called her brother, who worked as a Sheriffs Deputy, and accused my bro of being "delusional" and a danger to her. He was taken from their home and placed in a mental facility for days on end. After many interviews with doctors and police, he was released but forbidden to live in his own home.

A few months later, he got a call from his then wife saying he should come over and pick up his stuff. He went there, along with a local city police officer. While there, he was confronted by several deputies and again put on a hold. The local cop said he couldn't do anything about it. After a 3 day hold, my bro was again released.

In some cases it doesn't take much to get someone institutionalized. Why then can we not put a hold on persons that are repeatedly threatening others? But be careful out there fellow gun owners... don't pizz off the wife!!!

which is why a hold contains a certification you are unrelated by blood or marriage...

 

[ma96782]

Years back, one of my two brothers was having trouble in his marriage. He had found evidence of his then wife, a college professor, having an extramarital affair with one of her college age students. After he confronted her, she called her brother, who worked as a Sheriffs Deputy, and accused my bro of being "delusional" and a danger to her. He was taken from their home and placed in a mental facility for days on end. After many interviews with doctors and police, he was released but forbidden to live in his own home.

A few months later, he got a call from his then wife saying he should come over and pick up his stuff. He went there, along with a local city police officer. While there, he was confronted by several deputies and again put on a hold. The local cop said he couldn't do anything about it. After a 3 day hold, my bro was again released.

In some cases it doesn't take much to get someone institutionalized. Why then can we not put a hold on persons that are repeatedly threatening others? But be careful out there fellow gun owners... don't pizz off the wife!!!

I can and do believe, that MANY HAVE ABUSED the SYSTEM. It occurs. I've seen it and lived it.

Think.....how can I use "An allegation of Abuse" to advance my case? Be it in a divorce, child custody, or whatever etc.... The party asking for protection might have even been coached by a lawyer, LEO, family friend, family member, counselor...... Anyway.....maybe, the allegation might just be a small chapter.....leading to an even bigger prize?

The problem is.....once you've been given the label.....the hurdle to prove the "other side" is a much higher barrier.

It's like how some (if not most of us) have been preconditioned to think that......mothers are BETTER care takers of children vs fathers. Yup.....to prove otherwise is difficult. Is that the reason why most mothers have custody of their children vs their fathers?

Then.....
Judges, lawyers, liberals, etc....(OK, Ok, ok....call it SOME OF THEM).......in the name of SAFETY......want to believe the person doing the accusing is in the right and telling the truth. Well, to them, it's better to err on the side of safety vs. your GUN RIGHTS. Which, LOL.......well some here, have said that you don't DESERVE anyway. Hey, you're..... "crazy" or "an abuser."

For those that think it can't happen......wait until it happens to you.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

which is why a hold contains a certification you are unrelated by blood or marriage...

The actual evaluation of the subject is not done by someone who is related by blood or marriage....for obvious reasons.

BUT.....
The initial request for a TRO (or mental evaluation request) is commonly done by a spouse, ex-whatever, other close family member, mental health professional, and/or a LEO. Obviously.....they have the most contact/interaction with the accused and frequently can relate actual "stories/incidents" to the person who will be hearing the request or doing the evaluation.

Aloha, Mark

 

[justcuz]

Years back, one of my two brothers was having trouble in his marriage. He had found evidence of his then wife, a college professor, having an extramarital affair with one of her college age students. After he confronted her, she called her brother, who worked as a Sheriffs Deputy, and accused my bro of being "delusional" and a danger to her. He was taken from their home and placed in a mental facility for days on end. After many interviews with doctors and police, he was released but forbidden to live in his own home.

A few months later, he got a call from his then wife saying he should come over and pick up his stuff. He went there, along with a local city police officer. While there, he was confronted by several deputies and again put on a hold. The local cop said he couldn't do anything about it. After a 3 day hold, my bro was again released.

In some cases it doesn't take much to get someone institutionalized. Why then can we not put a hold on persons that are repeatedly threatening others? But be careful out there fellow gun owners... don't pizz off the wife!!!

Sorry this tale isn't about MH professionals instituting holds on individuals who are presenting valid symptoms of mental distress but rather corrupt law enforcement deputy(ies) who abused their power and your brother failing to follow through with appropriate charges - twice!

He didn't a thing did he to rectify the abuse of power towards him, now did he?

He didn't go to the higher educational and present his 'evidence' of the violation of institutional policy on cohorting with students.

Further the local cop could do a thing...he is a excellent witness to the abuse!

 

[justcuz]

I can and do believe, that MANY HAVE ABUSED the SYSTEM. It occurs. I've seen it and lived it.

Think.....how can I use "An allegation of Abuse" to advance my case? Be it in a divorce, child custody, or whatever etc.... The party asking for protection might have even been coached by a lawyer, LEO, family friend, family member, counselor...... Anyway.....maybe, the allegation might just be a small chapter.....leading to an even bigger prize?

The problem is.....once you've been given the label.....the hurdle to prove the "other side" is a much higher barrier.

It's like how some (if not most of us) have been preconditioned to think that......mothers are BETTER care takers of children vs fathers. Yup.....to prove otherwise is difficult. Is that the reason why most mothers have custody of children vs thier fathers?

Then.....
Judges, lawyers, liberals, etc....(OK, Ok, ok....call it SOME OF THEM).......in the name of SAFETY......all want to believe the person doing the accusing is in the right and telling the truth. Well, to them, it's better to err on the side of safety vs. your GUN RIGHTS. Which, LOL, well some here have said that you don't DESERVE anyway. Hey, you're..... "crazy" or "an abuser."

For those that think it can't happen......wait until it happens to you.

Aloha, Mark

In the early 90s my accountant was experiencing martial difficulties and divorced, first time he returned his two girls his ex alleged child molestation accusations against him, he was arrested, investigated, local police discerned nothing wayward occurred and released him.

Over the next couple years, his ex had him arrested 20 times for various crimes against his children, last time the judge called her into court for making false accusations, after 20 times!! My friend refused to pursue charges against the love of his life, but now ex love of his life, however the police did!

I do not know how mentally screwed up the daughters are as adults, but my friend is and has been happily married for almost 20 years with his new family.

 

[ma96782]

In the early 90s my accountant was experiencing martial difficulties and divorced, first time he returned his two girls his ex alleged child molestation accusations against him, he was arrested, investigated, local police discerned nothing wayward occurred and released him.

Over the next couple years, his ex had him arrested 20 times for various crimes against his children, last time the judge called her into court for making false accusations, after 20 times!! My friend refused to pursue charges against the love of his life, but now ex love of his life, however the police did!

I do not know how mentally screwed up the daughters are as adults, but my friend is and has been happily married for almost 20 years with his new family.

Sounds like someone else knows the definition of...........

"Psychobubblegumfromhell"

I wonder why the Judge didn't act sooner?

But then again, that can also be said about many other Govt Employees and about various multitudes of events that make the news.

Aloha, Mark

 

[justcuz]

Sounds like someone else knows the definition of...........

"Psychobubblegumfromhell"

I wonder why the Judge didn't act sooner?

But then again, that can also be said about many other Govt Employees and about various multitudes of events that make the news.

Aloha, Mark

alas, it was a different period and like the current accusations floating about men's inappropriate activities, 30-40 years ago which were not reported at the time and are now, due to the current social media PC BS, are causing men to be denied due process and knee jerk organizational mentality the fastest way to get this public relations nightmare off our plate is to terminate, with prejudice those accused.

KevinS, communicated with an male adolescent for several months before inviting him to the big apple, now 20 +/- years later the now actor accuses KevinS of in appropriate behaviour. Where were the parents who allowed their adolescent son to traipse off to NYC to visit a complete stranger?

MonicaL has surfaced yet again stating on TED no less, now 'well in hindsight, maybe it was abuse'; this from the young lady who kept her outfit with BillC's semen on it after the act? Good heavens she is worse than Hillary who is still popping up, after losing, writing a book about losing, now in India on some bloody tour, whining she lost and woe be our citizens.

this current PC madness has to just stop...what happen to the concept put up objective evidence or shut up and go stand in the corner until you can!

 

[bbbass]

which is why a hold contains a certification you are unrelated by blood or marriage...

In calif?

I don't know the legalities of what happened to him, nor the proper terminology for his "mini-commitment", but it did happen.

 

[ma96782]

justcuz,

LOL. I am a believer in the "statute of limitations" and OK, Ok, ok.....it's mostly for criminal cases.

But, I can just imagine the nasty things I've done and said, in the past or even recent past. OMG! I'll never be able to hold an elected or high public office.

Then again.....
I'm an NRA member, a gun owner and have a CCW permit.

Sorry, we're not hiring.

Aloha, Mark

 

[bbbass]

So then, the psychobubblegumfromhell slashes his tires, leaves threatening messages, drains his bank account, takes his disability settlement, acts like a psycho in front of the divorce judge to the point that she has to be removed from that courtroom, and is awarded 85% of their $$ and assets. And he is the one forbidden to own firearms and has two psych evals on his record. Today, he walks a narrow ledge with behavior.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

In calif?

I don't know the legalities of what happened to him, nor the proper terminology for his "mini-commitment", but it did happen.

I don't do Cali.

 

[justcuz]

justcuz,

LOL. I am a believer in the "statute of limitations" and OK, Ok, ok.....it's mostly for criminal cases.

But, I can just imagine the nasty things I've done and said, in the past or even recent past. OMG! I'll never be able to hold an elected or high public office.

Then again.....
I'm an NRA member, a gun owner and have a CCW permit.

Sorry, we're not hiring.

Aloha, Mark

are you olde too

 

[justcuz]

So then, the psychobubblegumfromhell slashes his tires, leaves threatening messages, drains his bank account, takes his disability settlement, acts like a psycho in front of the divorce judge to the point that she has to be removed from that courtroom, and is awarded 85% of their $$ and assets. And he is the one forbidden to own firearms and has two psych evals on his record. Today, he walks a narrow ledge with behavior.

So didn't do anything, got it.

Didn't report the law enforcement collusion or abuse to the agency's IA or State AG or even the Fed AG?

Kinda like those who are now complaining about their past treatment at the hands of co-workers, bosses, etc., while they didn't do anything at the time.

For goodness sake, OJ was found NOT GUILTY in criminal court by a jury of his peers yet lost the shirt off his back, er trophy, in a civil suit?

So your brother's mistreatment by the evil ex lives and thrives in your family's folklore, glad to hear!

Everytime something befalls your brother, 'well it is from the mental anguish you ex caused you' kinda like OJ's judicial trouble(s).