guns and mental health survey, Walk The Talk America

[Member 53328]

It's for you and others like you that I want things to change.

And no, I do not think it would change anything we disagree on, I just want people to be well.

Agreed. It needs to be about people and not making money.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

"liked"...not because of what happened....
But because it showcases the power of language.

That said...
Whoever stated :
"The pen is mightier than the sword".....
Clearly never closed in and destroyed an enemy firing at you with a crew served weapon....
( Although my language was pretty powerful at such times... )
Andy

They changed the name of the program a few years later, the acronym from that program name is still around as a slur today

 

[Koda]

told the counselor I refused to take any meds

The "Mental health organization" as a whole is just like the medical and pharmaceutical companies. They are there to make money. Not make you better. They'd rather over prescribe you and have you dead than to make you better.

Ive felt for a very long time now that this is a problem that needs to be stopped, but so far not one organization or politician on either side of the fence is trying.

Solution #1: We need to stop issuing psycotropic meds to fix peoples mental health issues. But people say it really helps most patients, but even in mild cases Ive only see it hide the symptoms. Sure, that can help in a way but it doesnt solve their issue...
what would it take to solve someones mental health issue without meds?

IMO we need to promote family values and parenting. But then thats yet another hot topic.

 

[Nosferatu]

Mixing drugs without extreme/thorough diagnosis can create an even worse situation.

My first experience with that was when I broke my back. I was prescribed Percocet for pain relief. I just remember sitting in the chair in my living room and having the entire room spin around me in a dizzy fog. That was the first and last time I took any of that crap, the pain itself was much easier for me to deal with. I can only imagine what adding meds to a depression-like symptom does to someone. No thanks.

 

[Member 53328]

My first experience with that was when I broke my back. I was prescribed Percocet for pain relief. I just remember sitting in the chair in my living room and having the entire room spin around me in a dizzy fog. That was the first and last time I took any of that crap, the pain itself was much easier for me to deal with. I can only imagine what adding meds to a depression-like symptom does to someone. No thanks.

They just over prescribe to the point you're a zombie. I'd rather deal with the pain.

 

[bradsteen]

At what point does a normal typical life issue become a mental health issue?

In my opinion mental health becomes an issue for people who own guns when they exhibit one or more of the following behaviors:

• Fantasizes about perpetrating acts of violence against people that pose no threat to them
• Obsesses about death and violence against innocent people (i.e. binge-watching beheading / execution / torture videos, etc.)
• Communicates or implies an intent to harm themselves or others (not just one-off outbursts, has to happen repeatedly and/or be paired with other symptoms)
• Flies into fits of uncontrollable violent fury (again, not just one-off outbursts, has to include some kind of physical aggression either to people or inanimate objects, i.e. punching holes in walls)
• Hallucinates or visualizes things that don't exist
• Is unable to recognize friends, family, and others close to them

It's not an exhaustive list, but each one of those things would tell me the person might pose a danger to themselves or others.

The next challenge, equally as important, is how to differentiate between temporary / controllable conditions (i.e. bout of depression brought on by life circumstances) and conditions that might not be temporary, controllable, or curable, and to ensure there is a path for those experiencing temporary / controllable / curable conditions to get their guns back when they've recovered. The "one size fits all" approach doesn't work for mental health, so laws that don't take into account that kind of nuance will do more harm than good.

 

[Member 53328]

Mike Drop: MARSOC Raider Government Hacker Michael Bloch | Mike Ritland Podcast Episode 152 on Apple Podcasts

Show Mike Drop, Ep MARSOC Raider Government Hacker Michael Bloch | Mike Ritland Podcast Episode 152 - Sep 3, 2023

podcasts.apple.com

2hours and 20min in is worth a lesson and a very dangerous outcome.

 

[Koda]

Here's a pretty good intro to how that can affect people. Keep in mind this version is just audio, there is another version that is a full face shield with VR vision that gives you a real time view of the world but can also remove people or things or add in things that aren't there in reality

that seems more like an exercise in distraction but yes if thats what some people struggle with hearing voices then thats a good example of what they go thru.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Agreed. It needs to be about people and not making money.

And it also shouldn't be about changing peoples opinions / views on things. It should be about mental health and that's all.
I believe that's a huge part of the destigmatization burden we are facing. People should not be afraid of being re-educated or reprogrammed, and right now, can continuing with the broken arm analogy. I think we're at the point where left-handed people don't wanna go to the doctor for a broken left arm because they're afraid they'll be forced to use their right hand

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

that seems more like an exercise in distraction but yes if thats what some people struggle with hearing voices then thats a good example of what they go thru.

Some people even report having conversations with the voices I don't think the audio tape can replicate that

 

[Koda]

The next challenge, equally as important, is how to differentiate between temporary / controllable conditions (i.e. bout of depression brought on by life circumstances) and conditions that might not be temporary, controllable, or curable, and to ensure there is a path for those experiencing temporary / controllable / curable conditions to get their guns back when they've recovered. The "one size fits all" approach doesn't work for mental health, so laws that don't take into account that kind of nuance will do more harm than good.

agree but thats not gonna be easy. So one idea is we need a modular/flexible healthcare solution with regards to getting guns back...
But then my question is how many people who are deemed a threat fully recover? What is that percentage?

 

[Member 53328]

And it also shouldn't be about changing peoples opinions / views on things. It should be about mental health and that's all.
I believe that's a huge part of the destigmatization burden we are facing. People should not be afraid of being re-educated or reprogrammed, and right now, can continuing with the broken arm analogy. I think we're at the point where left-handed people don't wanna go to the doctor for a broken left arm because they're afraid they'll be forced to use their right hand

I agree. But in todays day and age there are very vast opinions on what's mental health and what is "lifestyle" choices….

We also have to discuss parenting, narcotic use, homelessness, discipline, labels, etc. what's ok and what's not. A lot of which is subjective depending on the individual overseeing the topic at hand….

There is no easy solution. And the solution is so divided left vs right that nothing will ever get fixed and things will only get worse and more divided. Which is why we end up arguing over a material item rather than the real issue at hand.

I have my own opinions on why we are where we are in America today. But I will keep them to myself as they would "violate" rules here.

 

[Nosferatu]

It's almost like people are individuals and no one-size-fits-all solution is going to work on everyone. Weird.

 

[Member 53328]

It's almost like people are individuals and no one-size-fits-all solution is going to work on everyone. Weird.

Crazy concept. Yet they want to fit us all in the same box…

 

[NeoBlackdog]

Agreed. It needs to be about people and not making money.

That's just crazy talk!

 

[Nosferatu]

That's just crazy talk!

Just crazy enough to make a HUGE profit!

 

[bradsteen]

agree but thats not gonna be easy. So one idea is we need a modular/flexible healthcare solution with regards to getting guns back...
But then my question is how many people who are deemed a threat fully recover? What is that percentage?

The removal of a person's 2A rights due to them being a threat to themselves or others is a legal issue, as is the process for restoration of their rights. I think medical professionals are too risk-averse to put any kind of standard in writing for determining if a person is sufficiently recovered enough to get their guns back, so I don't know how much help they will be. Besides it probably varies widely from one condition to the next, which is why I'd say it may be better to just rely on legal standards based on evidence on a case by case basis to come to that conclusion. That's why the outline of specific concerning behaviors is so important - if those behaviors are present, the person is likely still a threat to themselves or others and shouldn't get their guns back.

 

[Member 53328]

The removal of a person's 2A rights due to them being a threat to themselves or others is a legal issue, as is the process for restoration of their rights. I think medical professionals are too risk-averse to put any kind of standard in writing for determining if a person is sufficiently recovered enough to get their guns back, so I don't know how much help they will be. Besides it probably varies widely from one condition to the next, which is why I'd say it may be better to just rely on legal standards based on evidence on a case by case basis to come to that conclusion. That's why the outline of specific concerning behaviors is so important - if those behaviors are present, the person is likely still a threat to themselves or others and shouldn't get their guns back.

Not only one condition to the next but also each medical professional and which way they lean politically could have devastating effects.

 

[Koda]

The removal of a person's 2A rights due to them being a threat to themselves or others is a legal issue, as is the process for restoration of their rights. I think medical professionals are too risk-averse to put any kind of standard in writing for determining if a person is sufficiently recovered enough to get their guns back, so I don't know how much help they will be. Besides it probably varies widely from one condition to the next, which is why I'd say it may be better to just rely on legal standards based on evidence on a case by case basis to come to that conclusion. That's why the outline of specific concerning behaviors is so important - if those behaviors are present, the person is likely still a threat to themselves or others and shouldn't get their guns back.

currently the only legal standard is if someone is either convicted of a crime or adjudicated mentally unstable by a court.

So then if someone is seeking mental healthcare then guns shouldn't even be a consideration. But then what if during the course of the healthcare the doctor is listening to someone saying violent things?

 

[bradsteen]

Not only one condition to the next but also each medical professional and which way they lean politically could have devastating effects.

Exactly. Too much room for bias and interpretation.