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Home intruder...question

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by trapgal, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. trapgal

    trapgal New Member

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    I have a question, I would like to get your opinion on. I'm not sure if this is the right area, if not I'm sure it will be moved. :)

    Anyway, recently got my conceal permit, and have been reading up on all of the laws for the states.

    For conceal carry, it seems pretty straight forward. If your life, or someone near you's life is in danger, you are legally allowed to use your weapon. If someone broke into your house, and you feel your life is in danger, you are allowed to use your weapon. However if your purse got stolen on a busy street, you are not allowed to use your weapon because your life was not in danger. (at least this is what I am gathering from reading)

    Now there are two instances I have thought of, where it might seem like a sticky situation I am not sure what would be the right thing to do.

    1) a person has broken into your home while you are there. They are downstairs and you are upstairs. You rush downstairs, gun in hand, and see that they are unarmed and are just grabbing your personal belongings. The minute they see you, they run for the door to leave.
    They are not posing a threat to your life. However they did break into your home. Can/should you shoot them? Or let them run out the door and hope they do not return? (please, I am not looking for answers "Hell ya, he broke in! shoot him!" I'm looking for answers that pertain to the law. thank you)

    instance 2) you are out for a walk in your neighborhood with your dog. A stray dogs comes running out of no where, and starts to attack you or your dog. Are you allowed to shoot the animal? Or do you need to just run away as fast as you can?

    Thank you for all your help. and as I mentioned, if this is in the wrong area, please feel free to move. Thank you.
     
  2. Classic

    Classic Federal Way WA Well-Known Member

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    1) don't shoot them in the back & remember "you feared for your life".
    2) kick the stray as hard as you can to save your dog, it will retreat. Use wasp spray as a non lethal dog repellant
     
  3. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Permit or not, the law in OR & WA is the same with regards to use of lethal force (regardless of what you use to apply the force).

    You can only use lethal force if you, or someone you are defending (doesn't have to be someone you know) are threatened with immediate serious bodily harm.

    You cannot use lethal force to defend your property (real goods).

    However, I someone breaks into your home (you have not invited them in), at any time while you (or your family, or guests) are there - there is the presumption that by that act, they are threatening serious bodily harm. This is somewhat based on the old biblical premise of self-defense against someone breaking into your house after dark - this was later expanded to any time.

    The idea is that "your home is your castle", and someone invading it is grounds for defending those premises with lethal force.

    If they turn around and run away, then the law generally assumes that they are no longer an immediate threat to you, so you can't use lethal force against them.

    This used to be the law or policy for law enforcement too - but now we have LEOs shooting almost anybody running away from them and more or less getting away with it. Civilians cannot do this.
     
    Onramp, orygun and 308 like this.
  4. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    As for the dog - it depends on the state (you do not list your location) and possibly the county or even city.

    In general though, if a dog threatens you or your pet or your livestock, then in some locales you are justified legally in using lethal force.

    You should check the actual laws wherever you are. Most locales have their laws online. There are also sometimes court cases you can review.
     
    Onramp likes this.
  5. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    1) Human life no matter how distasteful will always be seen as more valuable than property
    2) Did you have a means of retreat prior to shooting?
    3) Did you fear for your life because of a "NO" answer to question #2?
     
    orygun likes this.
  6. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    best to keep a number of an attorney who does firearm related defense in your phone or wallet. Since even if you have a totally justified shooting you want to say "I feared for my life" followed by "I will need to speak with my attorney" Even if the cops are high-fiving you and carrying you on their shoulders saying "hip hip hooray" you will want an attorney doing all the talking.
     
  7. albin25

    albin25 Lewiston Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that your ABILITY to retreat is also a consideration, as well as is whether those you are responsible for can also retreat.
    -Is the intruder between you and your kids, wife or aged mother?
    -Are you or your dependents able to retreat or defend themselves?
    -Are you physically able to fend off or get away?

    You are not expected to dive out of the nearest window while yelling," I'll go for help!", leaving your wife and kids behind to face the possibility of harm.
     
  8. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Never talk to the police.

     
  9. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    NOTE: The Oregon Supreme Court has ruled that an individual has absolutely NO DUTY to retreat from a threat.
     
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  10. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that they are unarmed? Check their hands. While you are doing that, the criminal you didn't see has attacked you from the side. Bad guys travel in packs you know. If you are safe upstairs, call 911 and do not put yourself in danger by going downstairs. Better to defend from a choke point like the top of the stairs, then to expose yourself by going into an unknown.
     
    albin25 likes this.
  11. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    this is a great video but if you apply this in real life and shoot someone in the back because they are turning to look at you you will need to be able to articulate and prove this video in your own words to justify the shooting.
     
  12. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    @trapgal - if you are in Oregon, I can recommend OFF and the book they publish, although it is currently being revised.
    http://www.oregonfirearms.org/


    I recommend everything by Mas Ayoob. Find his books at Amazon.


    Since you are thinking about such things. Ask this question - What is it you want?
    - Do you want to kill someone? If so, then I don't know you and I never responded to your post.
    - You probably want them to LEAVE.
    - You probably want any attack or threat to STOP.
    Can you tell when the threat has stopped? left? You can get some training in these areas - Threat Dynamics for example. There are many others.


    As for a dog. Never run. Dogs are Cursorial. They run down prey which is running. Do what you must - look big, protect your pet - but do not run.
     
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  13. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    My opinion on your questions:
    1) no, you cant shoot him. 2) I think this has more to do with discharging a gun in city limits since in the situation you describe your life is not in danger. You can shoot the dog if its attacking you, if the dog is big enough to put your life or limb in danger. You cant shoot the dog for attacking your dog in city limits, although you can certainly physically defend your dog which may lead to you needing to defend yourself... ;) Outside of city limits I don’t know if you can shoot the dog in defense of your own dog, but I don’t see why not...

    you didn’t say what state your in. No-one can give you an opinion on the law if you don’t share what state your in because the laws can vary.

    If your in Oregon...
    1) ORS 161.219 is the law covering the use of deadly force. Section 2 is worth noting in the exact situation you described.
    2) ORS 166.220 is the law covering discharging a gun in city limits. Section 2(b) is worth noting.


    welcome to the forum.
     
  14. trapgal

    trapgal New Member

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    Wow! thank you everyone for such awesome responses! I really appreciated that video as well! Puts things in a different perspective.

    To answer some questions: No, I do not want to kill anybody! lol. I am praying that I will never have to use my firearm in a defensive situation. But if I do, I want to be fully prepared. I very much value all human, and animal life! ( We have rescued all 4 of our pets! :p)

    That is a good point to not go downstairs. Better to stay up stairs, call the police and maybe not even act like I am home.

    I live in Washington State, and am trying to get familiar with the laws.

    I love animanls, and would never want to shoot them. I would try fighting the dog off, but if it doesn't let go of me, I was just wondering what I could/ could not do. However I do carry pepper spray as well. So as mentioned, that is probably the best bet first.

    I think the main thing I have to remember is: "is mine, or others life in danger?"

    I have heard of threat dynamics. They look really awesome! Might have to make the drive sometime and take a self defense educational class
     
    Koda likes this.
  15. trapgal

    trapgal New Member

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    And thank you for the welcome to the forum. :)
     
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  16. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    here is a link to some Washington laws on guns. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41
    I dont know if that covers everything though...

    Definitely take a class on lethal force laws its part of the responsibility. Here is a link with lots of good information article on use of force, worth bookmarking. IIRC the author lives in Washington st. http://www.corneredcat.com/article/legal-concerns/ability-opportunity-jeopardy/

    lastly, If I had only one advice to give a gun owner its to buy the book Deadly Force by Massad Ayoob. Really puts it all in perspective in one easy to read container.
     
  17. RVTECH

    RVTECH LaPine Well-Known Member

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    Depending on the size of the dog you may not have an opportunity to Wonder what you could/could not do - trust me - they move real fast and once committed usually do not stop. Hopefully your 'love' of animals doesn't keep you from defending yourself against one if you ever had to.
     
  18. 1337BaldEagle

    1337BaldEagle Earth Active Member

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    Just because somone is fleeing does not mean they cease being a threat. Generally speaking, if they are in your house it's generally assumed that they are a threat. Why? Because it's unreasonable for a home owner to take that undue risk. Does this mean you get to execute a person who broke in? No. Many laws come with the word "reasonably." Laws of high conscience are rarely absolute.

    On that note, I would like to mention one thing that many people overlook. Just because you are armed does not mean you can't do other lawful things. What I mean to say is that, for instance somone is stealing your purse. While it may be wise to not give chase in the state of Oregon it is legal to chase and use non lethal force to retain or get property, that had been just taken, back. Being armed does not mean you legally have to forgo that. Just know that if you do end up needing to use your firearm you are going to be looked at from a perspective that you may have given chase and used the firearm to get your property back. Which is NOT legal. But if you had elected to uses non lethal force to get your property back only to have a knife pulled on you, you are justified to use lethal force, but you will undoubtedly have to fight in court to show the use was "reasonable."

    Which brings me to my last point: if you are in this kind of situation you do not talk to police without legal representation. Period. Someone already beat me to posting my favorite defense attorney giving a lecture. I would recommend you watch it.


    Eagle
     
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  19. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    You have no obligation to retreat. And you shouldn't in your own home.
    If someone is in your house and when they see you they bolt. You would have quite a problem in court if you told the court they were running out of the house but they had broke in so I shot them.If you told them the bad guy picked up something to hit you with then you have a case

    As far as the dog,if it is attacking you and there is not threat of hitting a human you may be OK but to just shoot a charging dog in the wrong scenario could cause trouble.
    Personally I would carry a walking stick as a first resort unless there is a problem dog that nobody wants to take care of
     
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  20. Wasniahc

    Wasniahc Issaquah Member

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    Shoot ONLY to protect human life. Never property is the basic rule of thumb.