Home intruder...question

[Joe13]

I have a question, I would like to get your opinion on. I'm not sure if this is the right area, if not I'm sure it will be moved.

Anyway, recently got my conceal permit, and have been reading up on all of the laws for the states.

For conceal carry, it seems pretty straight forward. If your life, or someone near you's life is in danger, you are legally allowed to use your weapon. If someone broke into your house, and you feel your life is in danger, you are allowed to use your weapon. However if your purse got stolen on a busy street, you are not allowed to use your weapon because your life was not in danger. (at least this is what I am gathering from reading)

Now there are two instances I have thought of, where it might seem like a sticky situation I am not sure what would be the right thing to do.

1) a person has broken into your home while you are there. They are downstairs and you are upstairs. You rush downstairs, gun in hand, and see that they are unarmed and are just grabbing your personal belongings. The minute they see you, they run for the door to leave.
They are not posing a threat to your life. However they did break into your home. Can/should you shoot them? Or let them run out the door and hope they do not return? (please, I am not looking for answers "Hell ya, he broke in! shoot him!" I'm looking for answers that pertain to the law. thank you)

instance 2) you are out for a walk in your neighborhood with your dog. A stray dogs comes running out of no where, and starts to attack you or your dog. Are you allowed to shoot the animal? Or do you need to just run away as fast as you can?

Thank you for all your help. and as I mentioned, if this is in the wrong area, please feel free to move. Thank you.

Are you willing and able to do both 1. And 2. Of your questions? No offense meant. Just a question.

Lots of people would not feel threatened enough by a thief running out the front door with your stuff to start blasting away...

#2 will get you a ton of opinions.

Are you willing to possibly go to jail for your dog? Are you 100% sure you can shoot the attacking dog while not harming your own dog in the process - all while they are tussling around on the ground?

For the dog's, carry pepper spray. Yes, your dog will get a snoot of it too but that's a temporary problem that's easily fixed.

For your home, you are at an advantage by staying at the top of the stairs and holding aim while having some cover. Shout that you are there or wait to have them accend the stairs and shoot then as you will have surprise adding to your advantage.

If you go running downstairs with gun in hand, how many places can your attacker/s be and how many of those areas can you scan before your attacked?

If you want true legal advice, pay for it and it will help your case in court down the line.

 

[No_Regerts]

As far as shooting a dog, you can go to your county website and get a map with zones describing the rules for firearm discharge. If you live in an area where the discharge of a firearm is prohibited, I would only use a firearm in the defense of myself or another human. In an unincorporated part of the county where the discharge of a firearm is permitted, you could use it without bearing undue scrutiny as you would within city limits.

As far as shooting another person, get some use of force training so you'll be confident yu know the difference between when you CAN shoot vs when you HAVE TO shoot someone.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

"Shoot only to protect human life, never property..."

Very good basic guideline. Back when VCRs were new and expensive things, we had a law in Washington that you could shoot a fleeing felon. A bandit snatched an armful of VCR and ran out of a video shop. The owner pulled a .44 magnum and permanently rehabilitated the bandit right there on the sidewalk, in the back. There was an outcry, but the value of the property taken made it a felony and the storekeeper hired a good lawyer and got off. Do NOT try this today, regardless of what the law may say.

We shoot to stop a threat to life. In theory, the cop shooting a fleeing violent criminal is shooting to stop a threat to society because he believes the fleeing criminal will harm others if not stopped. In reality, cops can shoot a kid holding a TV remote, a man pulling out his wallet in response to a demand for ID, and old man getting out of a pickup with a cane, pretty much anyone, if "the Officer believed his life was in danger." You and I will be held to a much higher standard.

For years, I have kept multiple copies of Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme," so I can lend to book to others. If you have not yet read it, do so. Bear in mind that whether you are prosecuted/persecuted for defending yourself depends in large part on the political climate in your area. Go to YouTube and find Ayoob's Five Things to say to the Police. There is other good advice from him there.

 

[best defense]

I have a question, I would like to get your opinion on. I'm not sure if this is the right area, if not I'm sure it will be moved.

Anyway, recently got my conceal permit, and have been reading up on all of the laws for the states.

For conceal carry, it seems pretty straight forward. If your life, or someone near you's life is in danger, you are legally allowed to use your weapon. If someone broke into your house, and you feel your life is in danger, you are allowed to use your weapon. However if your purse got stolen on a busy street, you are not allowed to use your weapon because your life was not in danger. (at least this is what I am gathering from reading)

Now there are two instances I have thought of, where it might seem like a sticky situation I am not sure what would be the right thing to do.

1) a person has broken into your home while you are there. They are downstairs and you are upstairs. You rush downstairs, gun in hand, and see that they are unarmed and are just grabbing your personal belongings. The minute they see you, they run for the door to leave.
They are not posing a threat to your life. However they did break into your home. Can/should you shoot them? Or let them run out the door and hope they do not return? (please, I am not looking for answers "Hell ya, he broke in! shoot him!" I'm looking for answers that pertain to the law. thank you)

instance 2) you are out for a walk in your neighborhood with your dog. A stray dogs comes running out of no where, and starts to attack you or your dog. Are you allowed to shoot the animal? Or do you need to just run away as fast as you can?

Thank you for all your help. and as I mentioned, if this is in the wrong area, please feel free to move. Thank you.

You should probably ask an attorney this kind of question. I do know that there was a guy who shot a couple of people in his basement and since they were not a threat at the time, he got charged with murder.

 

[Lantraxco]

What it boils down to is simply this: If you are threatened by anyone or anything, do what you need to do to survive, or cause your loved ones to survive. You may be and probably will be subjected to police interrogation and possibly be charged with a crime. As has been said here before say NOTHING without having an attorney with you if in fact you have had to use your self defense tool. Our legal system is anything but fair, but if you keep your head screwed on straight and use common sense there's a good chance you will emerge more or less unscathed. We're the good guys, mostly. Cheers.

 

[Phillip Morris]

I have a question, I would like to get your opinion on. I'm not sure if this is the right area, if not I'm sure it will be moved.

Anyway, recently got my conceal permit, and have been reading up on all of the laws for the states.

For conceal carry, it seems pretty straight forward. If your life, or someone near you's life is in danger, you are legally allowed to use your weapon. If someone broke into your house, and you feel your life is in danger, you are allowed to use your weapon. However if your purse got stolen on a busy street, you are not allowed to use your weapon because your life was not in danger. (at least this is what I am gathering from reading)

Now there are two instances I have thought of, where it might seem like a sticky situation I am not sure what would be the right thing to do.

1) a person has broken into your home while you are there. They are downstairs and you are upstairs. You rush downstairs, gun in hand, and see that they are unarmed and are just grabbing your personal belongings. The minute they see you, they run for the door to leave.
They are not posing a threat to your life. However they did break into your home. Can/should you shoot them? Or let them run out the door and hope they do not return? (please, I am not looking for answers "Hell ya, he broke in! shoot him!" I'm looking for answers that pertain to the law. thank you)

instance 2) you are out for a walk in your neighborhood with your dog. A stray dogs comes running out of no where, and starts to attack you or your dog. Are you allowed to shoot the animal? Or do you need to just run away as fast as you can?

Thank you for all your help. and as I mentioned, if this is in the wrong area, please feel free to move. Thank you.

 

[RVNvet]

O.K., here's straight from the 'horses mouth,' so to speak. I've worked about twenty fatal shooting cases when I was a LEO (I'm now retired), and the below is the best example I can remember germane to this thread.

I was an investigator for the Multnomah County D.A.'s Office (Portland, Oregon). The Deputy D.A. I was working with (Brad Benziger, Esq.) was on a 'murder rotation' list for the office. He came up on a fatal shooting in north Portland, so we read the police reports and attended the victim's autopsy the next day.

Facts: A large, muscular young man (victim) got into an argument with a frail elderly neighbor (suspect) over a parking situation. Victim threatened the suspect with a beating. Suspect then went into his house, locked the door, and sat in a chair with his pistol in his lap. Victim crawled into the house through an open window and rushed the suspect, who opened fire. Victim turned and ran to the window and jumped out. Suspect continued to fire until the victim got outside. Victim got to the sidewalk, then collapsed and died. Suspect stated that he WAS NOT AFRAID AFTER THE VICTIM TURNED AND FLED TOWARDS THE WINDOW, BUT CONTINUED TO FIRE BECAUSE HE WAS FURIOUS.

At autopsy, on initial investigation of the body there was one bullet wound to the front left shoulder, and two bullet wounds in the lower back, about four inches apart. At that time, we decided that if, as it appeared, the shots to the back, which took place as the victim retreated, caused the death, the suspect would be charged with some degree of murder, AS HE HAD STATED THAT THE SHOTS HAD BEEN FIRED WHEN HE WAS NO LONGER AFRAID FOR HIS LIFE, OR OF SERIOUS PHYSICAL INJURY.

Dr. Bradey (the M.E.) first probed the bullet holes in the back, and we were astonished to learn that they were from one shot, which had entered and exited the muscle at an angle, and could not have caused the death. He then opened up the victim, and we found that the shot from the front had hit the shoulder bone and then bounced down into the chest, hitting an aorta, and was the fatal wound.

D.D.A. Benziger then took our findings to the D.A., who concurred with our opinion that we shouldn't prosecute, ruling the FATAL shot was in self defense.

So much for the legality. Morally, if you shoot someone just because you 'can,' and not because you 'have to,' you join the ranks of the lowest scum in our society, IMHO. I've worked a number of murder cases, and the pain and grief they caused are horrendous. Also, if you ever kill someone, justifiably or not, he/she will live with you for the rest of your life. Just ask anyone, including combat vets, who carry that burden. People who ask, "WHEN can I shoot someone?" make my blood boil.

As for the dog, in my somewhat educated opinion, if you think you're in danger, I believe you can shoot it. But remember, it's someone's beloved pet, and the dog's owner may also be a CCW permit holder! (I carry scars on my thigh from a large dog that attacked me as I approached a home, but it was on a chain, and once I pulled free and out of range, it never even occurred to me to shoot it. I just filed a complaint with the Animal Control Bureau.)

One last thought. "I read it on an internet forum, your Honor!" is NOT a very good argument at trial...

Later,
Max

 

[rick benjamin]

Thanks Max!

 

[Chrisamim]

As others have said, Mas Ayoob is a great resource, his book "In the Gravest Extreme". Also Marty Hayes of Firearms Academy of Seattle, and the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network , knowledge and post-shooting legal support. No, I'm not a spokesman, just like their programs.
None of us want to shoot or kill someone, we want them to stop whatever it is they are doing. If they turn and run, problem solved, but do call and report.
My two cents; I love my dog, but pets are considered property, ours, and the attacking dog too. An attacking dog can be considered a lethal force/weapon. If someone's property is out of control, you may use force to protect you and your property (throwing caltrops in front of a driverless rolling car). An attacking stray dog may come after me once it's done with my dog. If a dog is purposely sicced upon my dog, then I figure it's in order to get me next. The use of lethal force may be justified.
You have good questions, answers depend upon the situation.

 

[Member 5605]

Only Texas IIRC you can use lethal force to protect your property.

 

[Hook686]

Think about the outcome. A jury decides if it was legal. It will cost you a bunch if it gets to that point, innocent, or guilty. If my life is threatened, it has risen to the level I need resort to lethal defense. Protecting property is not the same as protecting life in my book. If you are serious about your questions, I think this not the place to look for answers. You might be wise to consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction to ask these questions.

 

[rick benjamin]

Carrying has advantages, responsibilities, and liabilities
I retained <broken link removed>
There is also Armed Citizen's legal defense network
Also US Precision Defense

 

[Deebow]

How do you know they are unarmed? Just because they don't have something in their hands doesn't mean they aren't armed.

Police officers in many jurisdictions shoot dogs that don't even attack them. If you shoot the dog attacking your dog, my guess would be that when the cops show up, you will get the opportunity to explain it to them, if you want.

But please pay attention to the video about not talking to the police. The police are there to solve a crime, they don't care about you personally.

My solution? Guy runs away, just let him go. This is why I have insurance. Call 911, be a good witness.

 

[tommy98466]

I have a question, I would like to get your opinion on. I'm not sure if this is the right area, if not I'm sure it will be moved.

Anyway, recently got my conceal permit, and have been reading up on all of the laws for the states.

For conceal carry, it seems pretty straight forward. If your life, or someone near you's life is in danger, you are legally allowed to use your weapon. If someone broke into your house, and you feel your life is in danger, you are allowed to use your weapon. However if your purse got stolen on a busy street, you are not allowed to use your weapon because your life was not in danger. (at least this is what I am gathering from reading)

Now there are two instances I have thought of, where it might seem like a sticky situation I am not sure what would be the right thing to do.

1) a person has broken into your home while you are there. They are downstairs and you are upstairs. You rush downstairs, gun in hand, and see that they are unarmed and are just grabbing your personal belongings. The minute they see you, they run for the door to leave.
They are not posing a threat to your life. However they did break into your home. Can/should you shoot them? Or let them run out the door and hope they do not return? (please, I am not looking for answers "Hell ya, he broke in! shoot him!" I'm looking for answers that pertain to the law. thank you)

instance 2) you are out for a walk in your neighborhood with your dog. A stray dogs comes running out of no where, and starts to attack you or your dog. Are you allowed to shoot the animal? Or do you need to just run away as fast as you can?

Thank you for all your help. and as I mentioned, if this is in the wrong area, please feel free to move. Thank you.

This one is easy. #1. No. #2. Yes. Use your head in all situations. Not everyone/thing is shootable.

 

[lonegunman]

1. If they are fleeing you have no reason to shoot them, even if they are or have just stolen your property. If they stole a gun and are now armed and dangerous, you might reconsider that choice based on the danger they now pose to others, including law enforcement. At the very least, when calling 911, you should describe the person as armed and dangerous and include the weapon type the prep is now armed with.

2. Yes, you can shoot the dog if need be, they will probably charge you with discharging a firearm in a public area of some such crap. You are shooting in defense of yourself and your pet and an attacking animal does cause fear for your life or threat of bodily harm. If it is a 9 pound poodle, you will have trouble.

Things to remember, shooting a felon in your home and not killing him opens you up to litigation, suits for medical bills and bodily harm, even when you are in the right. If you discharge your firearm, the police are there to persecute you FIRST, then assess the actions of the vicious dog or criminal. They work as hard if not harder for the rights of the criminal.

I would not speak with them without a lawyer for any reason, other than cursory discussion and to emphasize how fearful I was of the pending bodily harm or loss of life from the actions of the attacker (man or beast).

Even when they say they "are on your side" and "are there to help you", they are lying. They are trained and coached to lie in order to get the person they are investigating to incriminate themselves for anything. Ask any policeman, they always refuse to speak to their peers without representation and they always refuse to allow access to their own property and person without a warrant.

 

[CoastRange57]

The shoot only to defend life is about as good as it gets. Best advice is legal advice. The mentioned books are very good also.

For the dog thing, I carry a 18 inch collapsible baton every day. A friend who walks a lot has a big walking stick. When my son was in Afghanistan they had to deal with feral dogs a lot. They got tired of having to shoot them, especially in villages, he asked me to send him a 22 inch baton which I did so he could use that instead.

 

[PaulB47]

"someone breaks into your home (you have not invited them in), at any time while you (or your family, or guests) are there - there is the presumption that by that act, they are threatening serious bodily harm."

Even here, it might make sense to hold off a bit if you can reasonably do so.

We have a woman friend who had a break-in when she was living alone, some years back. She gets up and goes into her living room and (sorry I don't remember the details) she either finds a young man on the floor, or he busts through the door and then falls and lies there. Anyway she called the cops, they come and get him. It turns out it was just a guy who was so drunk he thought he was trying to get into his own house, which was a couple of blocks away. Just one case where shooting would have been a sub-optimal response...

 

[PaulB47]

"Shoot ONLY to protect human life. Never property is the basic rule of thumb."

One should judge a rule by what would happen, if everyone actually followed it. This particular rule makes theft a risk-free occupation. That's not good.

There are two issues - what is the moral response, and what is the government response.

I can't help much with the government response, which as usual is often counterproductive and immoral. But morally, if you say, "Put down my stuff and get out, or I will shoot," and the guy tells you to bubblegum yourself, I think the morally proper thing is to shoot. Again, you have to factor in how the government will "help" this situation, for your response, in reality.

It's not a mere question of whether a life is worth a TV set. It's morally a question of whether you will submit to someone who intends to walk over you. I don't believe you are required to do so. You are not the slave of every low-life who comes along.

 

[mjbskwim]

It's not a mere question of whether a life is worth a TV set

Like I have said before,it's not the TV set but what he can do with it.
Your defense should be to ask the jury if you could drop the TV on their heads.
Anything they take can be a weapon,that could potentially kill you.

 

[Koda]

the moral thing to do is to not use lethal force when your life is not in danger. Good luck explaining to a jury you had a right to not let him walk all over you....