Good SHTF Vehicles

[The Heretic]

You don't understand gears, it has plenty for a realitively light vehicle. It just needs a higher final drive whether you get there with an overdrive or higher differential ratios. Both get the same result. The engine has plenty of torque and band to pull a reasonable weight. If you are trying to move 50,000 lbs. more gears might be nessisary. Early Dodge Diesel trucks had a 2.5 to 1 differential ratio and a 3 speed automatic transmission.

I understand them fine - I've taken apart 20 speed ag tractor transmissions, repaired them and put them back together.

I was a professional mech for about a decade, much of that working on marine diesels and then ag and industrial equipment and I have operated a lot of equipment with diesel powerplants. The problem with the gearing in my truck is that when I shift up from one gear to another, there is too much of a gap between the ratios and the engine falls below its powerband. This is why equipment with diesels that have a narrow powerband - like the Cummins 6BT - tend to have close ratio gear boxes. The differential gearing does not affect the ratio gap, it only affects the top and cruising speed (and sometimes how much weight you can start with on an incline). I have 4.10 gears in my Dodge with 28" tall tires and it still has problems going from one gear to the next.

I currently write the software for configuring class 8 trucks and part of that is showing the dealer performance charts which include such things as the RPM and power and so on for each gear ratio, and for starting and climbing hills with different loads.

For light trucks like my Toyota you would not be pulling weight you would be hauling half a ton at most.

The early pickups and passenger vans with diesels - especially the Fords and Chevys - with diesels and 3 speed autos and torque converters sucked. The torque converters were setup for gas engine RPMs and the trucks could not get out of their own way. Eventually the manufacturers learned to lockup the converter at a much lower RPM and to put more gears in the trans to get closer ratios. I drove a number of these vehicles - one a Ford step van hauling a trailer with a genset, lead sheeting enclosure (for sound deadening) and antennas and fuel around the PNW and it was an absolute dog. The other vehicles were field service vehicles and they had autos too and they were dogs.

Look at how many gears a diesel ag tractor has - many, and they often even have power band charts right on the shifting plate to show the farmer what gear to run in at what speed/RPM (and sometimes for the PTO). Large trucks have many gear ratios in their transmissions to deal with the lower RPM diesels they use.

Sure a 4BT would move my Toyota, but it is also large and heavy and has a narrow power band compared to the automotive diesels like the OM617 and other foreign made automotive diesels meant for their compact trucks and cars. The OM617 is a robust diesel, with a more appropriate size and weight for smaller vehicles like the older Toyota pickups. You can find Japanese diesels for those trucks too, the MB diesel is just easier to find because there were a lot more MB 300 sedans imported than Japanese diesel powered vehicles.

 

[41mag]

The torque converters were setup for gas engine RPMs and the trucks could not get out of their own way. Eventually the manufacturers learned to lockup the converter at a much lower RPM and to put more gears in the trans to get closer ratios.

not to argue, just wondering how such an engineering error could be so readily continued over a couple mechanical generations of such rigs?

And what does it say about both the Mfg as well as the buying public, to allow/accept/actually purchase such rigs. Repeatedly?

 

[Brane Frees]

My baby is a 1986 Chevy Silverado Suburban 6.2 diesel 4WD with a Banks turbo. Everything except the radio works perfect. In town it gets 17.5 mpg, on the highway at the speed limit it gets up to 23 mpg.

Fold down the back seats and there is a full 8' of storage behind me. Rides like a dream in town and on the highway with lots of leg room everywhere. The outside is in good shape with 32 years worth of wear but nothing major. It certainly doesn't stand out in a crowd which suits the heck out of me.

That rig is going to outlast me and I'm going to enjoy every mile of it. Did I mention I just love that dang truck? Wife's actually jealous of it.

 

[MrMillspecer]

I understand them fine - I've taken apart 20 speed ag tractor transmissions, repaired them and put them back together.

I was a professional mech for about a decade, much of that working on marine diesels and then ag and industrial equipment and I have operated a lot of equipment with diesel powerplants. The problem with the gearing in my truck is that when I shift up from one gear to another, there is too much of a gap between the ratios and the engine falls below its powerband. This is why equipment with diesels that have a narrow powerband - like the Cummins 6BT - tend to have close ratio gear boxes. The differential gearing does not affect the ratio gap, it only affects the top and cruising speed (and sometimes how much weight you can start with on an incline). I have 4.10 gears in my Dodge with 28" tall tires and it still has problems going from one gear to the next.

I currently write the software for configuring class 8 trucks and part of that is showing the dealer performance charts which include such things as the RPM and power and so on for each gear ratio, and for starting and climbing hills with different loads.

For light trucks like my Toyota you would not be pulling weight you would be hauling half a ton at most.

The early pickups and passenger vans with diesels - especially the Fords and Chevys - with diesels and 3 speed autos and torque converters sucked. The torque converters were setup for gas engine RPMs and the trucks could not get out of their own way. Eventually the manufacturers learned to lockup the converter at a much lower RPM and to put more gears in the trans to get closer ratios. I drove a number of these vehicles - one a Ford step van hauling a trailer with a genset, lead sheeting enclosure (for sound deadening) and antennas and fuel around the PNW and it was an absolute dog. The other vehicles were field service vehicles and they had autos too and they were dogs.

Look at how many gears a diesel ag tractor has - many, and they often even have power band charts right on the shifting plate to show the farmer what gear to run in at what speed/RPM (and sometimes for the PTO). Large trucks have many gear ratios in their transmissions to deal with the lower RPM diesels they use.

Sure a 4BT would move my Toyota, but it is also large and heavy and has a narrow power band compared to the automotive diesels like the OM617 and other foreign made automotive diesels meant for their compact trucks and cars. The OM617 is a robust diesel, with a more appropriate size and weight for smaller vehicles like the older Toyota pickups. You can find Japanese diesels for those trucks too, the MB diesel is just easier to find because there were a lot more MB 300 sedans imported than Japanese diesel powered vehicles.

It sounds like you have a weak engine. My Dodge diesel has only 4 gears 3:70 rear end, but a wide band of power. My truck powers up grades with our 23' trailer in OD at 70 mph plus if I choose. No problems pullng gears. But ya 600 ft/lbs and 355 hp.

 

[The Heretic]

not to argue, just wondering how such an engineering error could be so readily continued over a couple mechanical generations of such rigs?

And what does it say about both the Mfg as well as the buying public, to allow/accept/actually purchase such rigs. Repeatedly?

They got better as they went on. My '97 Dodge with a five speed is better than the Fords with a 3 speed auto and torque converter. As the US made diesel pickups progressed they got more gears to bring the ratios closer together and the torque convertors in the autos locked up at lower RPMs.

Look at the Allison they put behind the Duramax. It started with five speeds and now has six. It does not have a "granny gear" making all gears usable and closer ratio. The six speed added another overdrive:

3.094 : 1
1.809 : 1
1.406 : 1
1.00 : 1
0.711 : 1
0.614 : 1

There is a pretty good gap between first and second, but I assume the torque converter helps make up for that, and typically gaps matter more as your speed increases in light trucks (like pickups).

However, I still want more gears in my truck; it has the NV4500 transmission. That transmission has two problems; one is that the 5th gear is known to slip off the splines because the large nut that holds it in place comes loose. Mine did that, a lot of do that. The one fix that seems to work permanently is no longer on the market because the maker/seller doesn't think there is a market for it anymore.

The other problem is that it has a 'granny gear' that is only good for going real slow and/or pulling/starting a heavy load at a low speed. This means that the transmission only has 4 speeds instead of five as first gear is so low as to not be useful 99% of the time. Here are the ratios:

5.61 : 1
3.04 : 1
1.67 : 1
1.00 : 1
0.75 : 1

I could put the NV5600 in the truck, as it has 6 speeds, but it also has a granny gear, making only 5 speeds useful. The NV5600 came in the next gen Dodge Cummins trucks. Here are the ratios:

5.63 3.38 2.04 1.39 1.00 0.73

Better, but still that granny gear.

The larger and heavier and much more expensive truck transmissions have more gears and closer ratios, but many of the ratios are too low, being made for larger trucks and different final drives and starting off with a heavier load, so I will probably windup going with the NV5600 to replace my NV4500. I am also going to go with taller wheels and tires - Rickson 20" wheels. Besides the load carrying capacity, that should get me a better cruising speed. I will be converting my truck to carry a large camper.

 

[The Heretic]

It sounds like you have a weak engine. My Dodge diesel has only 4 gears 3:70 gears but a wide band of power. My truck powers up grades with our 23' trailer in OD at 70 mph plus if I choose. No problems pullng gears. But ya 600 ft/lbs and 355 hp.

It does have problems - I am not sure whether it is the governor or the pump or the turbo, but it is weak. I have not dived into it yet. When I retire and have the time is when I intend to fix all that is wrong with it and convert it from a 'farm truck' to an RV. I almost never drive it on the road - only using it on my property - so I have other things to spend time and money on. It needs a new front end, a new transmission, air conditioning fixed, some electrics fixed and the engine looked at. Then the steel construction bed will come off and an aluminum bed installed. I am looking at getting an air suspension for the DRWs.

First thing though is to payoff my mortgage.

 

[Rudedog]

I love the art work. Nuttin Fancy has a video on his minivan bugout vehicle. I have had four wheel drives since 1974. There are many but I found that the ability to do many basic repairs is important. Chevy's and jeeps fill the bill. Fuel mileage is poor, only 3mpg in deep snow or mud. Mini trucks get 4 mpg in the same conditions. They also have smaller fuel tanks and have to keep the engine at a high rpm to keep rolling.
I do like one thing about ISIS. They roll with Toyota diesel Landcruiser pickups. People are still wondering who ISIS got them from. Do they have a strong credit rating? Perhaps a shrewd auction buyer ? How much does it cost to eliminate one with a drone? Are they worried about mileage or emissions ?

 

[Quartermaster]

Can I change my vote?



With an obvious color change needed.

 

[The Heretic]

Motorcycles are versatile in some ways, limited in others.

Highly maneuverable, capable of being carried by some 4 wheel vehicles, more capable off-road than most 4-wheel vehicles, relatively fuel efficient.

Downsides:

They do require skill, and the more challenging the terrain, the more skill you need.

Off-road they also need you to be in good physical health as off-road riding can be very cardio intensive - indeed, one of the most cardio intensive sports there is. This limits the distance most people can ride in a day. Even on a paved road, riding a motorcycling is more tiring than driving a car. Also, if you are injured, you might still be able to drive a car with only one arm or leg working right, but unable to ride a motorcycle as generally you need all appendages at least nominally working to ride.

You are exposed to the elements - both heat and cold, snow and rain. Few people can safely ride on ice or snow. Riding in inclement weather, even with the best gear, can be a hard experience at best, and life threatening at worst.

Limited range. Most stock motorcycle capable of off-road riding have less than 200 mile range, usually quite a bit less than that - some hold less than 2 gallons of fuel, most less than 4 gallons. Even with 8 gallons of fuel (max I could configure my Husaberg with), most will have a range of 200 to 300 miles at best. The more fuel you carry, the heavier the motorcycle becomes.

Limited cargo and rider capacity - especially off-road. Generally, off-road, the motorcycle will carry one person only. Trying to ride difficult off-road terrain two up makes the riding exponentially harder.

Motorcycles with IC engines are generally louder than most automobiles. They have less engine mass and are often air-cooled, and they have less space and weight dedicated to exhaust silencing. Electric motorcycles are quieter but they don't have the range yet, and recharging them is problematic on a long trip.

Weight is the great Satan in off-road motorcycling. The heavier the motorcycle, the more difficult and tiring the riding will be, the lighter it is, the better. Most 'dual sports' are significantly heavier than a purpose built 'dirt bike'. Often the dirt bikes are not street legal. Bikes made for the street are much less capable off-road - if capable at all.

Motorcycles are also vulnerable to attacks and ambushes.

Keep these things in mind if you are thinking about a motorcycle for a SHTF vehicle.

 

[41mag]

one is that the 5th gear is known to slip off the splines because the large nut that holds it in place comes loose. Mine did that, a lot of do that.

the transfer case bull gear in my 45 CJ2 did that in 1963!!!

 

[Pandaz3]

a pair of boots a ruck and a weapon will get ya there if your heart and soul never quit.

That makes it about 300 yards for me.

 

[Argonaut]

re: 'mules'......I knew a guy that did 'mule logging' with his team of matched white (no privilege implied) Missouri mules. Watched him run them a number of times. Just damn amazing. I ain't so sure whether they actually might have been "smarter than us" already

I used to own a horse drawn carriage busisness and had a good friend very well known in the Mule world. His name was Schmeisser, he owned a good size trucking company but the mules were his passion. He took a liking to me and was very kind as opposed to many guys he would run off his ranch. He had huge Belgian mules at his Castiac I5 Southern California mule ranch that he raised at his Missouri farm. He was a consistent winner at the Bishop mule days. Liked big hitches (6-12 mules) pulling a large classic hitch wagon. Later on he had a fairly severe stroke and lost the ability to speak. I would wander in to his ranch from time to time, his eyes would light up and he would have his hands hitch up usually 6 of these massive animals in front of a massive hitch wagon that I would drive with him sitting on the box next to me through the Burger King drive through that was just up the hill. This rig had to be 60 feet long all hooked up but those old mules would side step and get us through the drive through I could barely do with my one ton dually. People always stopped and took pictures. It was an incredible sight. The people that took care of the old man always were happy to see me because he was in good spirits for days after we did the stunt. Later, he tried to get me to take over his ranch but it was so valueable that there was intense pressure from his kids to sell it as he became more infirm so I couldn't see much future there.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Ideal would be a long wheelbase Scout Traveler with a Cummins 4BT and a 5sp.

Call me old fashioned, I don' care.
I had a '77 Terra w/345 gas and a 4sp with the large fuel tank (22 gal I think) and other than the mileage, it was all anyone would ever need to bug out. With a 4BT it oughta get about 22-24 MPG. And with a 22 gal tank that's a huge range.
With the Traveler you can haul anything you want and keep it dry, or sleep in the back if necessary.
Never shoulda sold that rig.

 

[EPS]

I think I would go more the bullet proof way yes 4x4 but bullet proof is a must because everyone is going to try to kill you to get your ride

 

[The Heretic]

Ideal would be a long wheelbase Scout Traveler with a Cummins 4BT and a 5sp.

Call me old fashioned, I don' care.
I had a '77 Terra w/345 gas and a 4sp with the large fuel tank (22 gal I think) and other than the mileage, it was all anyone would ever need to bug out. With a 4BT it oughta get about 22-24 MPG. And with a 22 gal tank that's a huge range.
With the Traveler you can haul anything you want and keep it dry, or sleep in the back if necessary.
Never shoulda sold that rig.

I had one too, but with the 727 automatic.

The Scout can probably handle the weight of the 4BT, with its solid Dana 44 front, and the fact that the IH V8s they had in them were no lightweight either. However, in my experience, the rear hatch door was problematic; it was fiberglass (the whole top was), one piece, and the latches on the side would wear out, rattle something horrible, wouldn't shut tight and otherwise cause problems (leakage). The top of the 'canopy' had problems too.

Now a Traveler with a half-cab and a pickup bed would be better. One of the nice things about the Scout IIs was that they shared a lot of parts from other manufacturers - the electrics IIRC were from GM, the auto was the Chrysler Torqueflite and so on. The engine was robust - the 345 was just the smaller displacement version of the 392 they had in their large trucks - although I personally blew one (392) up in the CG - that engine must have been bad because that was the third time that engine disintegrated during normal use - otherwise they are supposed to be good engines - I never had problems with the 345 in the Scout.

The Scouts come with a Nissan diesel, which have adequate power. I almost bought one but the front end was wonky on it (wandered all over the road) and along with other things wrong with it I just didn't want to take on another project - I just wanted a smaller 4x4 truck that I could reliably drive to work, so I got the Toyota instead. I plan on putting a diesel in it after I retire and have the time to mess with such projects.

 

[Argonaut]

That Nissan diesel was one of the worst engines of all time. They were heavily marketed and also installed in Jeep flight line tugs, boats and even in early Dodge Valiants. I have owned and driven Scouts for 45 years. In the early 80's there were maby a dozen quite new versions sitting at an equipment dealer near Salt Lake. I stopped to inquire about them (I was driving a 2 year old Traveler) it seems they were all Nissan Diesels purchased by a movie production company new 18 months ago. They were used for less than a year. International didn't want to buy them back at any price. Of the 12, 4 we're still operable. The equipment company had bought them very cheep at auction thinking they could make a buck and quickly regretted it. I have junked those engines several times out of boats that were unrepairable while still quite new. The owners that could afford it replaced them with Cummins. I salvaged boats that had been torched by the owners for insurance because they had the engines and could not be economically repaired. Early Scouts (and Jeeps) used Perkins diesels as an option. Many were underpowered but at least they held together and could be repaired if needed. I liked my Traveler a lot but it was impossible to make go straight down the road. It had every conceivable option including power steering. We spent thousands on it trying to improve the driving chairistics with both my dad's undercar tire shop and the dealer with no avail. I came to the conclusion it had to do with the ratio of the PS gear and wheelbase. You had to fight it all the time to keep it in a lane. It really kept you on your toes at freeway speeds.

 

[41mag]

from my "Great Rigs of Yore" journal....

Circa 1967 I was finishing college & had been heavily invested in the tribulations of a broke yet aspiring dirt bike adventurer in SW Idaho. My notion of 'ideal vehicle' was one that gave the mobility, economy, and fun of my dirt bike fetish while keeping me dry for a change and allowing reasonable road trip comforts along with companions....although that refreshing escapade of skiing to classes in the Great Snow of 1966 on the bike, avoiding catastrophe by sheer luck, only to find an empty parking lot & cancelled classes fresh in mind, still motivated upgrading the other driving rig.

Enter my first VW bug, a 1965 slightly used model, "Gertie".....Over the next few years I expanded my understanding of just was 2 wheel drive could do. Resilient, reliable mostly, certainly economical (round trip from Boise to PDX for barely $10), oil change/valve adj & vacuum/wash rack for $6.95, yet would conquer most of the challenges of my hill climbing & desert rat roaming adventures. Viable heater, defrost almost worked well, what's not to like.

Gertie was the first of an eventual sequential fleet of 5 VWs, one of which was an early 1956 model, even then considered a relic. It had the 26hp motor & 4 gear could be counted on to wind out infinitely as long as the grade resembled flat & the wind was trailing. It proved to me no matter how slow you were sooner or later you would come across someone you just had to pass. The heater was the notable gas-fired version which had an exhaust under the right front fender. I soon learned how to make it backfire & could cause enough uncertainty at an intersection to gain right of way in moments of impending traffic congestion.

Both of these would have made serviceable SHTF rigs even for this day & age.

A marvelous 1961 Ghia Convertible was all the advantages of the Bug of the era, with improved handling, no more power, and considerably even more fun. Alas, 'Farting Annie' gave up an engine in the failed belief the little red oil pressure light accompanied by increasingly loud knocking sounds couldn't possible mean what it seemed to indicate. After all, the recent mechanic services assured all was well with that tiny oil leak he insisted was repaired.

Reality of a sort imposed itself on my thwarted intents to travel down the spine of the Andes to the tip of South America, relying on VW roadworthyness. The sudden sobriety of graduation & more pressing matters--such as 'making a living--snapped me into an entirely different set of 'SHTF' parameters....

 

[The Heretic]

My Traveler did fine on the road. When I was in college (LCC) after the military there was a kid there whose father owned an IH dealership, both ag and trucks. He didn't like that he had to drive this clunky old Traveler (his dad had given him to use at college) around so he told his dad that it wouldn't start, that the engine blew up or something.

He offered it to the class for $500 so I took him up on it. I towed it home to my apartment using my Datsun, then I did the usual diagnostics; did it turn over? Yes. Did it have spark? Yes. Did it have compression? Yes. Was it getting gas? No. Poured a little gas down the carb and it fired up. Got five gallons of gas and poured it into the tank and it ran fine.

I don't know what he experienced or if he was just outright BS'ing his dad, but once I got the title I started driving that everywhere instead of my 4x4 Datsun. It was a much better rig, but the bench seat killed my back.

Late 80s I traded it in on a Bronco II - which was a nice rig when it wasn't in the shop - every year something electronic went bad on it costing me $500-1000 each time, then the transmission went out, twice. Second time I junked it and bought a Toyota Tercel with 130K on it for $2k - drove that into the ground until the brakes were metal on metal then I bought a Bimmer and put 120K on that with no problems - now my daughter has that.

 

[The Heretic]

from my "Great Rigs of Yore" journal....

Enter my first VW bug, a 1965 slightly used model, "Gertie"....

One of my first jobs as a teenager on my own at the ripe age of 18 was working at German Motors in Salem.

I was a grease monkey there working for the three owners who were from Austria. Learned a lot. there was a mech there - Ernie IIRC - who had a shortened bus that would go just about anywhere - or so he claimed. He would bring it into the shop and because it wouldn't fit on the hoist with some of the tires he put on it, he would roll it onto its side to work on it most of the time. He could turn it around inside the shop.

I would do the lube jobs, the brake jobs, remove the engines and clean them up for serious engine work (valves, etc.), sometimes they would let me do some valve jobs, I never got to do any transmission work.

Very simple engines, very easy to work on, also easy to steal the engine - more than one came in with the engine missing because the engine is very easy to remove. A lot of them had problems with the studs pulling out of the cases. You can usually tell those engines with loose studs/heads as they sound like they have a bad muffler. I learned to dislike split case engine designs - even the water cooled Subbies have problems with leaking head gaskets. Then there was the pushrod tubes.

Simple engines, easy to repair, but they did not last as long as a engine with a conventional block before needing some kind of repair. And "tinny" too - had one Karman Ghia come in that had a very bad floor pan - almost put the hoist right up thru the car because I didn't know how bad it was.

 

[41mag]

one Karman Ghia come in that had a very bad floor pan - almost put the hoist right up thru the car because I didn't know how bad it was.

mine was in for repair when they showed me a bug that had run over a 4x4 cut to about 30" length driver had impacted on fwy, which then jammed under chassis & in very short order wedged into pavement & highlifted the car, making permanent frame flexion & assorted body damages. Driver was nearly psychotic from the weird combination of circumstance....

re: Salem Summer 1968....I was traveling by the VW shop on Market & someone was doing an actual VW burn out across the parking lot....!!!