Can we talk defensive shotguns?

[Gunner3456]

I have a dilemma which I'd really appreciate some thoughts about? I love shotguns.

I have a good fully rifled, rifle sights, 22" Winchester 1300 12 ga pump for shooting slugs including sabot slugs and that's a specialty item and a keeper. It's very powerful and accurate and is for brush hunting large animals or BG's. That's not on the table here.

I'm thinking smooth bore defensive shotguns right now. I have a typical 18 1/2" Winchester Defender 7+1 12 ga pump - good basic home defense weapon.

Here's my question. I'm thinking of replacing it with a 22" smooth bore in either pump or semi auto. The new gun would, as the Defender, shoot rifled slugs or buck shot in a most deadly closer range fashion.

The drawback to the 22" is tactical maneuvering, and I'm wondering just how much that would really matter?

The plus is that the 22" would have full rifle sights and with rifled slugs would be far more effective at distance while still retaining the "knock down" attributes of the tactical, shorter shotgun with buck shot.

My main question for you tactical experts is, "how much would I give up by adding 3 1/2 inches to the length of the barrel in tactical ability? Is there any good reason why I shouldn't go with 22" instead of 18 1/2 ", considering the other advantages of the longer barrel with rifle sights?"

This is a home defense and SHTF gun. I could still add a mag extension to the 22" and get 7 or 8+1.

Let the flaming begin. All thoughts appreciated

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[phathom]

Currently, I have a Remington 870 Express Magnum, it has a pistol grip folding stock, so you can use it with or without the stock. It also has a 18" barrel and a +2 extender, making it 6+1. It has a smooth barrel and fires all types of shot out of it great and slugs with pretty good accuracy.

I was looking for something in this configuration for about a month until I finally found one for a good price. It's great for home defense, stores nicely anywhere, very maneuverable and will fire anything.

I actually keep it loaded with Buck,Slug,Buck,Buck,Slug,Buck and I know it will be accurate and have great knock out power on each one.

Plenty of aftermarket options for it, but IMO this is THE tactical shotgun configuration to have for home defense. Very easy to break down completely and clean too, only takes about 5 minutes from disassembly to reassembly.

Here's the beast:

 

[rusobr2]

i bought a 870 rem.-syn stock-12 ga. NIB- from my ffl- for 239.00-knocked the barrel off at 19",and all it does is sit in the corner of my closet, with double "00" took it out, and shot it at an old piece of plywood - you don't want to be standing in front of it at 20-30 ft-just my thoughts.

steven

 

[ORBrit]

I actually keep it loaded with Buck,Slug,Buck,Buck,Slug,Buck and I know it will be accurate and have great knock out power on each one.

Why the mixed load? Do you have neighbors close by or kids in the house?
Is over penetration a non issue for you?

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to mix ammo in a magazine unless you're in the infantry and using 3B1T or some othe combination like that. But for a carry handgun or shotgun I would keep the magazine all the same.
With pump shotguns how often would you fire the entire magazine before reloading the whole tube again?
I think you should train to quickly rrloadcat every opportunity. At that point in the heat of the moment you're not going to remember what you've fired and what you've loaded.


I personally use a side saddle for the purpose of having 3 more buckshot and 3 rifled slugs.

 

[ORBrit]

Oh and to Gunner, I don't think the additional length is an issue if you train extensively.
The added advantage of having 2 shotguns of equal length is that you are more familiar with both.

 

[phathom]

Why the mixed load? Do you have neighbors close by or kids in the house?
Is over penetration a non issue for you?

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to mix ammo in a magazine unless you're in the infantry and using 3B1T or some other combination like that. But for a carry handgun or shotgun I would keep the magazine all the same.
With pump shotguns how often would you fire the entire magazine before reloading the whole tube again?
I think you should train to quickly rrloadcat every opportunity. At that point in the heat of the moment you're not going to remember what you've fired and what you've loaded.


I personally use a side saddle for the purpose of having 3 more buckshot and 3 rifled slugs.

I keep it loaded that way with 2 slugs in there as I have a very long hallway leading up to my bedroom, that would allow me more distance than a normal buckshot.

Also if for some reason someone happens to break in and be wearing body armor where the buck might not penetrate it, I'm confident that the rifled slug would, or at the very least have a great knock down effect.

I loaded the gun in that order so it's mirrored front to back so it's easy to remember for me.

Also with the size of my place, over penetration isn't really an issue, and no there are no kids, just 2 dogs who are my best alert of someone breaking in.

If for some reason they are closer and there is a possibility of over penetration all I have to do pump the slide once and I have skipped the slug in favor of more buckshot. I have it there just as the option in case it is needed. Just like it's said a lot, "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

 

[The Quiet Man]

Stick with the short Defender and shoot it until it becomes an extension of your body. Practice tactical reloading technique. You won't need sights or slugs in a real defensive encounter, just thundering firepower. You'll soon learn to appreciate the 18 1/2 inch barrel as you work with it. $.02

 

[phathom]

Stick with the short Defender and shoot it until it becomes an extension of your body. Practice tactical reloading technique. You won't need sights or slugs in a real defensive encounter, just thundering firepower. You'll soon learn to appreciate the 18 1/2 inch barrel as you work with it. $.02

+1, learn how to properly and accurately hip fire it with no sites, also while moving if possible. I normally take mine up in the mountains and set up cans, bottles, smaller targets, etc. and practice shooting with no sites, just intuitively, practicing quick target acquisition without sites as well as quick reloading.

After a couple hundred rounds through it like this and several sessions I feel very confident in my ability to ready the gun and shoot small targets quickly at a distance as great as the longest run at my place.

Practice makes perfect, practice as much as you can afford to.

 

[unionguy]

I have the Remington 870 pump with an 18" barrel, added the Knoxx pistol-grip reocoil-reducing stock (adjustable). Its very easy to do follow-up shots very quickly from the shoulder with it, the recoil is very manageable. I highly recommend the Knoxx addition, they have it for Mossberg too.

 

[bikemaniac1]

I am by no means a "tactical expert." I do know that a shotgun with an 18 1/2" barrel can be cumbersome in some circumstances. I have never used one with a 22" barrel but in a home defense situation when do you think you will ever need the range of those added few inches? If they are that far off then they probably aren't that big of a threat. If they are a threat at a longer distance then I personally am going for my rifle.

 

[demonhunter55]

i'm also looking to pick up a HD shotgun and started this thread ( <broken link removed> ) on another forum. There is alot of good discussion of what rounds to use for the best in home defense.

 

[ORBrit]

I keep it loaded that way with 2 slugs in there as I have a very long hallway leading up to my bedroom, that would allow me more distance than a normal buckshot.

Also if for some reason someone happens to break in and be wearing body armor where the buck might not penetrate it, I'm confident that the rifled slug would, or at the very least have a great knock down effect.

I loaded the gun in that order so it's mirrored front to back so it's easy to remember for me.

Also with the size of my place, over penetration isn't really an issue, and no there are no kids, just 2 dogs who are my best alert of someone breaking in.

If for some reason they are closer and there is a possibility of over penetration all I have to do pump the slide once and I have skipped the slug in favor of more buckshot. I have it there just as the option in case it is needed. Just like it's said a lot, "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

I see why that makes sense for you. How long is that hallway? More than 100 feet?
I think if someone was to come in wearing body armor and the 00 buck didn't knock them flat on their back, I'd be aiming above or below it.

My concern re: over penetration is because my kids rooms are both upstairs and only 3-4 sheet rock walls separate our bedroom from theirs.
Slugs will go through all those and through the neighbors house too!

 

[phathom]

I see why that makes sense for you. How long is that hallway? More than 100 feet?
I think if someone was to come in wearing body armor and the 00 buck didn't knock them flat on their back, I'd be aiming above or below it.

My concern re: over penetration is because my kids rooms are both upstairs and only 3-4 sheet rock walls separate our bedroom from theirs.
Slugs will go through all those and through the neighbors house too!

Hallway is about 100 feet from front door to bedroom door. A couple rooms off to the sides of it, but it's pretty much a straight shot from my bedroom to the front door.

 

[ORBrit]

I figure 00 Buckshot will still pattern sufficiently to hit out to about 25 yards with my Mossberg 590 (Cylinder bore).
I've read range reports where with highly modified choke and 000 buck shot, 40 &#37; of shot on target at 100 yards, and still penetrating PT 2x4 lumber.

What's outside your front door, if you happen to shoot from your bedroom?

 

[BlvdKing]

I am also a fan of the 18" barrel and the 870 or 590 whichever you prefer. The nice thing about the shorter barrel is maneuverability in small dark areas. You will most likely never engage a target over 25-50ft away in your house but you will have to go through door ways, around corners, and possibly up or down stairs. I think my setup is best for both home defense and SHTF which is a Remington 870 Marine Magnum with knoxx adjustable stock, Surefire forend, Mesa Tactical saddle rail, red dot sight, and VTAC sling

 

[sbryson21]

Hey Gunner have you considered the Saiga 12? they have a 19" or 22" barrel and are semi auto mag fed. I really like the advantage that instead of my old 870 where I had only a 7+1 capacity I now can put on a 20 round drum. I feel really confident with that 19" Saiga loaded with 20+1 rounds of 00 buckshot for any BG and his 10 friends that decide to come with him .

 

[phathom]

I looked at getting a Saiga 12, but a couple things stopped me. Firstly, I heard they weren't as reliable as say a Mossberg, Remington, or Winchester.

How is the reliability of it in your experience? Has it ever jammed on you or failed to cycle the ammo properly? I'm still interested in getting a Saiga 12 later on as a fun weekend gun.

Next, I heard that some specialty type rounds, such as some non-lethals wouldn't cycle in them as is the case in some Benellis. I know this isn't an issue for 9x.9&#37; of people but I wanted to keep my options open in case I wanted to play around with some other types of ammo in it such as a dragons breath round or incindinary rounds one day.

 

[Gunner3456]

Hey Gunner have you considered the Saiga 12? they have a 19" or 22" barrel and are semi auto mag fed. I really like the advantage that instead of my old 870 where I had only a 7+1 capacity I now can put on a 20 round drum. I feel really confident with that 19" Saiga loaded with 20+1 rounds of 00 buckshot for any BG and his 10 friends that decide to come with him .

OK, just from rumor, please tell me which of the following isn't true?

1. It's made in Russia.
2. It's based on the AK platform.
3. It has a really crappy trigger.
4. It has really crappy sights, and sights can't be mounted on the barrel.

I'm thinking really high quality American made such as Remington Wingmaster with 22" smooth bore and good rifle sights. (I already have a 22" fully rifled bore Win. 1300 12 ga pump with good adjustable rifle sights and. Pic. rail.)

I'm also thinking of having it fitted with a modified choke if it's cylinder bore.

I'm thinking indoor/outdoor all around shot gun - even a gem in the woods. I'm thinking more accuracy and a lot more range (rifle sights, bore length) than my 18 1/2" Defender. It would still, with the choke, shoot slugs and buck shot, and maybe even bird shot for all I know.

??

 

[NoAim]

OK, just from rumor, please tell me which of the following isn't true?

1. It's made in Russia.
2. It's based on the AK platform.
3. It has a really crappy trigger.
4. It has really crappy sights, and sights can't be mounted on the barrel.

I'm thinking really high quality American made such as Remington Wingmaster with 22" smooth bore and good rifle sights. (I already have a 22" fully rifled bore Win. 1300 12 ga pump with good adjustable rifle sights and. Pic. rail.)

I'm also thinking of having it fitted with a modified choke if it's cylinder bore.

I'm thinking indoor/outdoor all around shot gun - even a gem in the woods. I'm thinking more accuracy and a lot more range (rifle sights, bore length) than my 18 1/2" Defender. It would still, with the choke, shoot slugs and buck shot, and maybe even bird shot for all I know.

??

Speaking of Remington, you can always go a slightly different route.

If you want a nice long rifle sighted barrel with a bunch of chokes etc, go for it. Then when you're done playing around, just swap the barrel out with your 18" fixed choke, bead sight (or whatever you want).

This way you don't need a "do everything gun" but can configure it to be exactly what you want.

 

[Gunner3456]

Speaking of Remington, you can always go a slightly different route.

If you want a nice long rifle sighted barrel with a bunch of chokes etc, go for it. Then when you're done playing around, just swap the barrel out with your 18" fixed choke, bead sight (or whatever you want).

This way you don't need a "do everything gun" but can configure it to be exactly what you want.

Thought about that, But all I'd need is that other shotgun and keep the Defender and the rifled barrel gun I have. I can't carry all three.

I'm trying to figure out if I can make a "grab this one" shotgun that will serve more functions than the Defender.

BACK to the original question.

HOW MUCH will I lose in defensive capabilities if I add 3 1/2 inches and rifle sights to a
defensive shot gun?