Ballistic Research - A very short non-definitive study

[Diamondback]

One of my dream guns:
>Frame: 1927 semiauto Thompson pistol, 13" barrel (the one just long enough for a legal VFG)
>Ammo: 255-260gr. .45LC Gold Dot bullet loaded to full-power 10mm Auto pressure specs (original, not the MINUS-P stuff today)
>Reinforced barrel/chamber, BCG and other structures to reliably accommodate above load longterm

 

[Geardo]

One of my dream guns:
>Frame: 1927 semiauto Thompson pistol, 13" barrel (the one just long enough for a legal VFG)
>Ammo: 255-260gr. .45LC Gold Dot bullet loaded to full-power 10mm Auto pressure specs (original, not the MINUS-P stuff today)
>Reinforced barrel/chamber, BCG and other structures to reliably accommodate above load longterm

Sooo a 10mm UMP? Cus that's my dream gun.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I would rather have this!

 

[Geardo]

I would rather have this!
View attachment 456330

Please excuse me while I change my panties.

 

[Diamondback]

Sooo a 10mm UMP? Cus that's my dream gun.

Still the traditional .45 bore and classic Chicago Typewriter look, just packing a lot more punch than the "vanilla" model. Something that wouldn't look out of place at a Zootshooting match, but if called upon for Home D the night after would still Totally Eff Up Mr. Invading Vermin and his human-garbage buddies.

Did anybody actually develop an effective from-clean-sheet-of-paper .45 JHP rather than just rescaling a 9mm?

 

[Geardo]

Still the traditional .45 bore and classic Chicago Typewriter look, just packing a lot more punch than the "vanilla" model.

Did anybody actually develop an effective from-clean-sheet-of-paper .45 JHP rather than just rescaling a 9mm?

Not sure. I think the HSTs and Gold dots work OK?

 

[Ura-Ki]

Imagine one of these classics in something more powerful then .45 How about 10 mm, .44 mag, or .45 Colt!

 

[Diamondback]

Functional but fugly. The ol' TSMG just has style...
/end thread-hijack

 

[Ura-Ki]

Functional but fugly. The ol' TSMG just has style...
/end thread-hijack

Sure, but which one are you likely successful constructing in yer garage using junk and floor sweepings after IP43 passes and were no longer citizens but felon subjects! Back to our program!

 

[Diamondback]

IP43's not MY problem, I'm in Washington--I'm just trying to help you guys out with strategy.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Thanks brother, but I'm playing for the long game!

 

[Argonaut]

Have you guys ever fired an open bolt gun? They are bloody awful full to shoot. By the time the bolt feeds the round and fires, your aim is totally gone. My Reising fired from a closed bolt and was far superior to shoot.

 

[Geardo]

Have you guys ever fired an open bolt gun? They are bloody awful full to shoot. By the time the bolt feeds the round and fires, your aim is totally gone. My Reising fired from a closed bolt and was far superior to shoot.

Nope! Let me have my fantasies.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Got that fixed! HK MP-7

 

[Geardo]

Have you guys ever fired an open bolt gun? They are bloody awful full to shoot. By the time the bolt feeds the round and fires, your aim is totally gone. My Reising fired from a closed bolt and was far superior to shoot.

Besides. It's a 10mm in hopefully full auto, I'll just dump the mag in the perp's general direction, and the thermonuclear shockwave should take him out.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Winchester 230gr. FMJ
Weight retained: 100%
Expanded Diameter: .467"
Medium: T-Shirt
Distance: approx. 30"
Firearm: 1911

This case happened about 20+ years ago, during a robbery. Suspect shot victim at close range, entering just south of the rib cage and coming to rest at the spine, going thru multiple organs in it's path. The shot was fairly level, and pretty much front to back straight away laterally.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Here's a HST (Left) and a Gold Dot side by side...both shot into a gel block.

You won't get the expansion with a heavy constructed bonded bullet as you will with a non-bonded. The bonded bullets are made to hold together and maintain weight retention when going thru media.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I have attended a few ballistic seminars where manufacturers would test their products in gel tests, impressive yes...but having been in a few scrapes, I always wondered how accurate they were.

I've always had good results from HST, from my own research as we're discussing here, and from other LE dept's that used it. It expands reliably, even thru auto glass.

I was able to obtain a few bullets from victims after the cases were long purged...I'll dig them up and post some pics.

Winchester SXT, at the time of my research was having jacket separation problems. Again, my research was done 10 years ago...I would hope they would have the problem fixed by now.

Here's an SXT taken from a plain gel block...clearly showing the starting of separation. Also clearly showing the talons too.



Back in around 2004, a plain clothes officer who is also a SRT member, firearms instructor etc. here in the state of WA., went out to leave for work. He forgot something in the house and left his dept. unmarked car running in the driveway. He came back out to find a male subject who had just got in his car and just closed the door. Because of all the weapons, munitions, flash bangs etc. in the car, he decided he was not going to allow this male subject to leave. As the subject was backing his car out of his driveway, he fired one shot from his 1911 using a Winchester SXT thru the windshield of his car at approx. 20 feet. The jacket of the bullet was found on the dashboard of the car in front of the drivers seat, the lead core was found just under the skin high on the male subjects sternum. Needless to say the bullet failed, and a fight ensued. Subject was eventually arrested...but that's not how we want this type of thing to go.

 

[Levetti]

I am well aware of the tupperware limits. I don't handload. That is factory ammo at 1300 with a stronger recoil spring and steel guide rod. You need a huge compensator to get past that, and it is still very IFFY.

FYI, for anyone unawares, this is due to glawks having the one of the fastest unlock times of the modern semi autos. Especially compared to a 1911. A big azz comp slows the barrel and slide down enough to not blow up when it unlocks prematurely with a super hot load.

I was unaware of that, so thanks for posting.

 

[Geardo]

Winchester 230gr. FMJ
Weight retained: 100%
Expanded Diameter: .467"
Medium: T-Shirt
Distance: approx. 30"
Firearm: 1911

This case happened about 20+ years ago, during a robbery. Suspect shot victim at close range, entering just south of the rib cage and coming to rest at the spine, going thru multiple organs in it's path. The shot was fairly level, and pretty much front to back straight away laterally.

View attachment 456415

I am surprised by the deformation of a FMJ, especially at .45 velocities.

Sorry for the 10mm tangent!