Ballistic Research - A very short non-definitive study

[Diamondback]

@Ura-Ki That wouldn't be M995 Black Tip, would it?

 

[Ura-Ki]

Can nether confirm or deny!

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I am far from being a expert ...but I have seen and caused more than my fair share of gunshot wounds and other gunshot "issues"...

My general rule is :
If you are using a gun for defense , use the biggest caliber gun that you can hit the best with / most often with / most comfortable with...
Having a gun counts...shots fired counts , but hits count the most.

After finding out which gun works the best for you and your situation...find the loading that works the best in the gun , by "best" , I mean a combination of most reliable in feeding , and most accurate for how you shoot.

Gunshot wounds are tricky at best ...some folks who get hit "lightly" can at times lose all interest in continuing or even die...others who are hit "hard" can and will continue fighting until sometime later...
Bullets , themselves , also do weird things at times....

Again find what works for you ....and practice.
Once you master the basics of your chosen gun and load , practice some more :
Practice as in :
All lighting conditions....
When you are tired , hungry , etc...
From different positions and hands...

Having a gun and knowing how to use it is important...but you also need the willingness to use it as well....
Andy

 

[po18guy]

There is clearly some thinking behind the 2 center mass, 1 to the head (time permitting) training regimen. That is how we trained and stress forces one back into training. Center mass is heart/lungs - both areas which will bleed heavily and in the case of the lungs, a general rule is if the perp cannot breathe he cannot fight. Inability to breathe has surprising power to cause the perp to focus more on breathing than battle. After two center mass, one to the head in a face-to-face confrontation has perhaps more likelihood of the snot locker hit.

One other factor, aside from caliber, clothing and body type, is context. Two people standing still face to face arguing over drugs and money might make a .22 lethal. Both subjects are static whereas many LE shootings are quite dynamic.

In 31 years, I came close, occasionally very close, but never had to put lead through flesh. It may sound odd, but I am thankful for that. The others, perhaps more so. At his trial, one thanked me for not shooting him.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Federal's HST 230gr. Non-Bonded HP catalog #P45HST1
Retained weight: 226.5gr.
Expanded diameter: .772"
Medium: Vehicle Windshield
Distance: 15 feet
Firearm: 1911





Officer shot subject inside a car at approx. 15 feet. There was very little deviation from point of impact on the windshield to point of impact on the subject.
In the tests I have observed, this tends to be a problem with most rounds when impacting windshields because of the angle, smoothness, and hardness of the surface. HST's have proved to be very good in this area. They will pretty much hit where you aim thru all media tested.
Bullet entered center of mass on the subject, penetrating the sternum, heart and coming to rest on it's back side. The subject never moved from their initial position in the car, thus deviation of the bullet was easily obtained.

The pic you see does have some gelatin on it, because I had it in a box in my car on a hot day with others that had been shot into gelatin, and the gelatin decided to melt over some of the others.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Here's a Federal HST before and after. I can't recall the case this bullet was attached to, been digging into my notes on and off the last couple days.

 

[po18guy]

Will be interesting to see the upcoming results of bullet designs as varied as the ARX bullet as well as Hornady's FTX.

 

[Diamondback]

In the absence of anything to contribute, I'm just gonna toss in another "thanks for letting us reap the benefit of your experience."

 

[Cerberus Group]

My pleasure. Am glad to pass on what I witnessed to further muddy the waters in the ballistic world.

Here's a run down on the major carry caliber specific recommendations, some I personally witnessed, some recommended by Dr Gary Roberts;

9mm - I don't recommend any 115gr, the performance is too inconsistent. I found 115gr bullets that were almost in perfect condition that one could almost reload them, to specimens that appeared to have exploded...and everything in between

Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dor 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal HST 124gr JHP +P (P9HST3)

38/357 - A very good short barrel/snub-nose round.
Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P (53921)


40
Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP (53961)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)


45 - Although I think the +P loads are unnecessary, they performed very well.

Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP (23966)
Speer Gold Dot 230gr +P JHP

As you see above, there are no Ranger SXT in the mix, as they are about as inconsistent as a Federal Hydra-Shok.

 

[Diamondback]

If it helps to note, Speer 53966 is the same thing as 23966, just an LE 50-counter as opposed to the regular 20-count.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Thank you for your observation...I was typing from my notes from my research as well as that of Doc Roberts...looking at them, it appears Doc had that attached to his notes.

Sorry Doc, don't mean to throw you under the bus!

 

[Cerberus Group]

Since this thread appeared, I've got some behind the scenes questions about Hornady Critical Defense.

I would recommend those mentioned above first. Comparing the HCD to the above in each caliber...they don't have the expansion, and sits a bit low on the penetration side.

As I've said in previous posts, would I cry much if someone took my 45 and forced me to carry a 9MM...no, as long as I can carry a well constructed bullet.

I also wouldn't cry if I was forced to carry the HCD, but there are better options.

 

[coop44]

They were all dead, right? If so bullet performance is a moot point isn't it? An investigation of survivors of gun shots would be more pertinent wouldn't it? Perhaps the types of bullets that didn't work?

 

[Diamondback]

They were all dead, right? If so bullet performance is a moot point isn't it?

Ah, but performance is the difference between "take long enough dying to kill you back" or not...

 

[coop44]

See edited post


Wow, you paraphrased captain Malcolm Reynolds

 

[Diamondback]

"Failure To Stop" would indeed be a worthwhile parallel investigation.

 

[coop44]

I guess I'll have to get a contender in 30/30 for concealed carry, one shot at less than 30 feet ought to do it.

 

[Colts4me]

They were all dead, right? If so bullet performance is a moot point isn't it? An investigation of survivors of gun shots would be more pertinent wouldn't it? Perhaps the types of bullets that didn't work?

I don't know if it's still true but many years ago the studies said of all the people shot with a handgun 80% survive. Of all the people shot with a rifle or shotgun 80% die. This was before the world started looking for better bullets but it tells you what non expanding ammo had to be if you wanted to permanently end the conflict.

 

[coop44]

Wow, I think that study was from the late sixties using data from two or three big city emergency rooms. Shoddy at best, likely politically skewed.

 

[Colts4me]

Ammo and guns have changed a great deal since that study came out.