Ballistic Research - A very short non-definitive study

[P7M13]

Thank you for posting your observations. I was thinking it'd be a valuable resource and "watched" it.
As far as "same wound, different results," in different people, you are dealing with potentially, vastly different scenarios.
To give you an idea on something where behavior is legitimately expected to be exactly the same, I designed robots that were built and tested to very exacting specifications. Identical parts, identical assembly methods, identical code, and to be validated, each one had to go through 1 million error-free complete process cycles, a suite of ~25 unique moves, before it could be installed in the factory.
Part of the reasoning was to eliminate any "infant death" failures of components, and also establish a maintenance baseline.
Once you prove the design and code, that should be pretty academic, right? That was my thought at the start of the contract. Most of the machines sailed right through. Some had trouble, and almost every one had "personality", meaning there were subtle nuances between each one that could make a world of difference in how it behaved across its service life.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Thanks for sharing your observations, much appreciated!
Much of your observations mirror my own, as a Medic, we saw all kinds of GSW, and one thing I learned, every one is its own set of facts. I also note your recommndations based on observations match my own with regards to .12 gau shot gun loads. Again, I have VAST experience using a shotgun in combat, and we almost never used Buck or Slugs against live targets. We used a combo of "F" and "T" shot Winchester high brass 2 3/4 ammo and we used a low bras #8 shot "duster" for doors. We also found the 5.56 ammo in any variant simply ice picked tangos, and very rarely did you ever see or hear of a one shot stop, even in the CPU, unless you hit that little 3 inch core, a shot to the gob rarely dropped a tango right were he stood. Another thing I observed was the .30 cal performance, this is where the "Shock" factor really came into play, so much energy being driven through tissue and bone, the damage is wickedly impressive, few shot with a .30 cal get up and walk away! And that' one where a shot any where in the gob will pretty much end the fight, it' like swinging a large hammer, but something hard enough the damage migrates radially! Sort of the ripple in a pond effect.
Wish there was more good ballstic info on other hand gun calibers, I personally carry a 10 MM full power, and would love to see how well the newer ammo does!

 

[P7M13]

Wish there was more good ballstic info on other hand gun calibers, I personally carry a 10 MM full power, and would love to see how well the newer ammo does!

I have a few left of a stack of 14 gauge mild steel plates that I use as pistol targets before sending them off to recycle. It's pretty telling what the different pistol calibers will and will not do. It seriously lowered my opinion of 9mm and 45.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Ura-Ki, that's a great post! Lots of good info., vastly different from what is written in the rags and posted on the net. My patience is done with the rag writers trying to glorify themselves based on a product they are paid to endorse.

I hope more like you step up and share your knowledge, every little bit helps...there is so much more now than when I was doing little research project.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I have a few left of a stack of 14 gauge mild steel plates that I use as pistol targets before sending them off to recycle. It's pretty telling what the different pistol calibers will and will not do. It seriously lowered my opinion of 9mm and 45.

This is one of the main reasons I never carry 9 mm, and had switched from .45 to the 10 mm many years ago, the .45 never really got any large scale development, and never really benefited from the newer bullet designs! I swear, the manufactures only develop ammo for the 9 mm and maybe the .40 and then offer it for the others with out any real testing and hard data for calibers such as .45! I think the last truly effective .45 load was the Hydro-Shok, and then only at full velocity from a combat length barrel! My own limited testing has born this out, the .45 has really lost any edge it once had, the only way I carry a .45 now is a commander length with full power 230 gr FMJ!
Another real Serious mistake I see folks making is in the shot gun for home protection, using slugs or Buck, or worse, a mix in the weapon, I can tell you, that's a YUGE mistake, and if your even faced with using that set up inside your home, I'm going to be really pissed as your neighbor when your sending slugs or buck through your walls and into my home! For the love of God, STOP using slugs and buck, use larger bird shot like "BB" or #2 shot, I don't wanna get shot while watching T.V. and minding my own business! Same with you guys that insist on using high power rifles, M193 will penetrate a lot farther then you think, and M855 is even worse! If you must use a rifle, USE soft point ammo, Stop the bullets in the walls! Like I said, I don't wanna get shot two houses down!

 

[Geardo]

Same with you guys that insist on using high power rifles, M193 will penetrate a lot farther then you think, and M855 is even worse! If you must use a rifle, USE soft point ammo, Stop the bullets in the walls! Like I said, I don't wanna get shot two houses down!

It is more nuanced than soft point vs m855. Ideally you want either Vmax type bullets or SMK type bullets. Both types fragment after the first wall, shedding energy very rapidly.

Fragmenting 5.56 bullets and shot in the #4 sizes seems to penetrate about the same amount of walls. Handgun bullets penetrate more than either IIRC.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I think the last truly effective .45 load was the Hydro-Shok, and then only at full velocity from a combat length barrel! My own limited testing has born this out, the .45 has really lost any edge it once had, the only way I carry a .45 now is a commander length with full power 230 gr FMJ!

This coming from both my friend who's an engineer at ATK, as well as Doc Roberts...Hydra-Shok is junk.

According to my ATK engineer friend...the reason it's still being made is because there's enough of it sold to keep it on the books.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I would agree with that, again, I don't think it was ever designed and tested/tuned speciffically for the .45 and it's low velocities! I am seeing the Remington Golden Saber as about the only half way decent bullet design, but even there, that bullet likes speed, something the .45 just dosnt have! My testing has shown that bullet has very deep penetration at 1040 FPS, and it expands nicely, but any slower and it won't open up enough to start cutting, and slow it down. At speeds of around 840 fps, from a 3 1/2 barrel, nothing in a .45 will open up, no matter how soft it is or how far you can drive it in! It will hurt like hell, but it likely will not produce a lethal end!

 

[Geardo]

I would agree with that, again, I don't think it was ever designed and tested/tuned speciffically for the .45 and it's low velocities! I am seeing the Remington Golden Saber as about the only half way decent bullet design, but even there, that bullet likes speed, something the .45 just dosnt have! My testing has shown that bullet has very deep penetration at 1040 FPS, and it expands nicely, but any slower and it won't open up enough to start cutting, and slow it down. At speeds of around 840 fps, from a 3 1/2 barrel, nothing in a .45 will open up, no matter how soft it is or how far you can drive it in! It will hurt like hell, but it likely will not produce a lethal end!

What 10mm load are you carrying? I carry a 9mm TBH, but I have a g20 for woods critters, and usually keep a magazine of 180gr xtps loaded up to 1300 fps by underwood for 2 legged vermin.

 

[Cerberus Group]

When I get home I'll post some pistol bullets from some victims. At the time we were carrying 45, so most of interest was focused there...but I do have some other calibers.

 

[Argonaut]

While stationed at Hill AFB I took to studying 45ACP bullets. Fired every kind of hollow point that I could find at the time many with heavy hand loading. There was a 185 grain bullet I fired at over 1100 FPS that expanded to .69 of an inch.........69 caliber, I need to find my notes to remember which bullet it was but it had a huge caverness hollow point . Most hollow points were no more effective than ball ammo driven at similar speeds. That was a long time ago and I am sure there are many new bullets changing the results I got. I load my 45's very hot and have never had a problem firing them as long as I use one of my guns with combat springs instead of my Gold Cup with target springs. There is no reason a 45ACP can't be loaded as hot as a 10mm except for the lawyer's that sit on the board of directors of ammo companies. I had a 45 Win Mag that was a great shooter but I tired of only being able to buy heavy loads for the range.

 

[P7M13]

Great discussion...
There are the unspoken things you can do to 45 ammo to help it expand faster.

 

[Geardo]

While stationed at Hill AFB I took to studying 45ACP bullets. Fired every kind of hollow point that I could find at the time many with heavy hand loading. There was a 185 grain bullet I fired at over 1100 FPS that expanded to .69 of an inch.........69 caliber, I need to find my notes to remember which bullet it was but it had a huge caverness hollow point . Most hollow points were no more effective than ball ammo driven at similar speeds. That was a long time ago and I am sure there are many new bullets changing the results I got. I load my 45's very hot and have never had a problem firing them as long as I use one of my guns with combat springs instead of my Gold Cup with target springs. There is no reason a 45ACP can't be loaded as hot as a 10mm except for the lawyer's that sit on the board of directors of ammo companies. I had a 45 Win Mag that was a great shooter but I tired of only being able to buy heavy loads for the range.

Isn't that called .45 super or something like that?

Only .45 I can respect!

 

[Argonaut]

The 45 Win Mag is a lengthened 45ACP case that was (is?) manufactured by several companies including Winchester. It was equivalent ti a 44 mag but fed better with the rimless case. The Semi auto pistol I had that was chambered in it wouldn't function with reduced loads. It was a stretched and lengthened 1911. Brass could also be made with 30-06 as well as I remember.

 

[Geardo]

The 45 Win Mag is a lengthened 45ACP case that was (is?) manufactured by several companies including Winchester. It was equivalent ti a 44 mag but fed better with the rimless case. The Semi auto pistol I had that was chambered in it wouldn't function with reduced loads. It was a stretched and lengthened 1911. Brass could also be made with 30-06 as well as I remember.

I was referring to the hot .45s you load. Basically .45 super, which makes sence to me compared to .45 AARP.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I try to steer people away from +P loads. No need to abuse the pistol.

One needs to understand that each HP bullet is designed for a certain velocity. In other words, if you take a bullet designed to expand and penetrate to a certain depth then change the velocity it was designed for, it won't perform as advertised.

Bullets made specifically for short barreled guns do not use the same bullet as regular loads, even though they are the same in grain weight and looks.

HP engineering is a bit of a delicate process. Push it too fast, and it expands too fast causing it to act like a parachute and you won't get the penetration. Too slow, and it won't open up thus acting like a FMJ.

 

[Argonaut]

I was referring to the hot .45s you load. Basically .45 super, which makes sence to me compared to .45 AARP.

I don't know what they were called.......the loading was supposedly for 45ACP revolvers (that I still own) When I met Elmer Keith, I asked him about hot ACP loading, (among other topics) he thought there was no reason that it couldn't exceed 1200 FPS with 230 grain ball ammo in a 1911 but he liked SWC bullets.

 

[Ura-Ki]

What 10mm load are you carrying? I carry a 9mm TBH, but I have a g20 for woods critters, and usually keep a magazine of 180gr xtps loaded up to 1300 fps by underwood for 2 legged vermin.

I'm close to your loads, a little hotter with the 180s around 1340ish, it's the super hot Golden Sabers I'm pushing close to 1300 fps that really shine, again in my limited testing of jell and denim, I'm consistantly seeing serious penetration and diameters of .84ish!
Do Not Try to replicate my loads in a Glock, it won't end well for You or the Glock!
I have also been playing with a 6 inch long slide, and getting around 90 fps over the standard 5 inch length, shows the 10 MM has a lot left in it, same loads out of a 13 inch rifle barrel show a huge speed increase of about 1600 fps!

 

[Geardo]

I'm close to your loads, a little hotter with the 180s around 1340ish, it's the super hot Golden Sabers I'm pushing close to 1300 fps that really shine, again in my limited testing of jell and denim, I'm consistantly seeing serious penetration and diameters of .84ish!
Do Not Try to replicate my loads in a Glock, it won't end well for You or the Glock!
I have also been playing with a 6 inch long slide, and getting around 90 fps over the standard 5 inch length, shows the 10 MM has a lot left in it, same loads out of a 13 inch rifle barrel show a huge speed increase of about 1600 fps!

Yeehaa that's cooking.

I am well aware of the tupperware limits. I don't handload. That is factory ammo at 1300 with a stronger recoil spring and steel guide rod. You need a huge compensator to get past that, and it is still very IFFY.

FYI, for anyone unawares, this is due to glawks having the one of the fastest unlock times of the modern semi autos. Especially compared to a 1911. A big azz comp slows the barrel and slide down enough to not blow up when it unlocks prematurely with a super hot load.

Yeah 10mm in a carbine is a whole other animal. Someday I want an ASR in 10mm, or better yet, Ruger will release their PCC in 10mm.

 

[Geardo]

I try to steer people away from +P loads. No need to abuse the pistol.

One needs to understand that each HP bullet is designed for a certain velocity. In other words, if you take a bullet designed to expand and penetrate to a certain depth then change the velocity it was designed for, it won't perform as advertised.

Bullets made specifically for short barreled guns do not use the same bullet as regular loads, even though they are the same in grain weight and looks.

HP engineering is a bit of a delicate process. Push it too fast, and it expands too fast causing it to act like a parachute and you won't get the penetration. Too slow, and it won't open up thus acting like a FMJ.

I agree. My comment is more aimed at people who think 45 is the hammer of Thor compared to my wimpy wonder9.



I tell them to put there money where their mouth is and at least carry 45 super .