Active shooter at a Texas HS

[h4344]

Just out of curiosity, extending the logic of your argument out - would you also agree if a kid steals a parent's car and kills someone with it, would you expect jail time for the parent for not securing their keys/vehicle? How about if a child gets a hold of alcohol in your home, takes it and shares it with other kids, and perhaps one dies of alcohol poisoning - would you want to see jail time for the parent for not securing the alcohol? How about matches, a lighter, gasoline, bleach, kitchen knife, etc., etc. At what point do we judge the parent is legally responsible for not securing every single item in a home that could be used to cause harm or death to someone else? Do you see where I'm going with this? If you're going to use that line of reasoning for guns, the only way to be consistent is to equally apply it to other things as well, otherwise, it's an unfair punishment based on the feeling that guns are somehow more dangerous than the other potential threats I mentioned.

I'm all for securing guns in the home, even more so if you have kids or perhaps an adult with say mental issues, you need to take extra steps. But at what point do you know if you've taken sufficient steps? Is a trigger lock enough? Cable lock? Stack On style locking cabinet? Or is only a full safe considered enough to satiate the desire of the DA to hang someone over a shooting?

I get where you're going, and why. But I see way too many opportunities for this to be abused. Ultimately, the responsibility, and therefore the punishment, should fall on the person doing the crime. Unless someone can be shown to be extremely and knowingly negligent in a way that actually helps encourage the bad act, then perhaps something could be done. But before that happens, there needs to be some very clearly defined, and mutually agreed upon terms and definitions (by all sides in the discussion) about what constitutes negligence in such a case.

In my mind just about anything that shows foresight was used to keep someone away from a firearm in the same household when said person should not have it.

Although your point about the vehicles or other forms of possible liability issues makes sense. Maybe the real solution really is trying to steer our countries morales back to what they once were.

 

[bbbass]

Although your point about the vehicles or other forms of possible liability issues makes sense. Maybe the real solution really is trying to steer our countries morales back to what they once were.

IMO that's a better idea.

 

[Ura-Ki]

^^^ There you go^^^^
Now that's something I believe we can all agree on and get behind!
Turn things around and get back to what makes this such a great country!
Having been all over the world, it's amazing to see how the rest of the world gets along, and every one admires US because of our freedoms and our very potent 2nd! It' The one thing we have that keeps the antis in check, the one reason we are all in point of fact, still free! All of our God given, enumerated rights are possible because we have that pesky thing called the 2nd! It's The one assurance we have th at protects all the others! With out that right, we would be no better off then any country in Europe at best, and given where our Gov. Has led us, more likely like some chit hole 3rd world country like Africa or South America! Be thankful for the 2nd, fight for it, because with out its protection, that's the future!

 

[etrain16]

In my mind just about anything that shows foresight was used to keep someone away from a firearm in the same household when said person should not have it.

Although your point about the vehicles or other forms of possible liability issues makes sense. Maybe the real solution really is trying to steer our countries morales back to what they once were.

Obviously securing guns is important - I just hate any law that puts people in prison arbitrarily. So in line with the suggestion to work on morals, with is absolutely a key factor here, I'd love to see lots of encouragement, education and, for those that may need it, assistance with getting methods for securing their guns. Free locks, maybe even price breaks on small safes, anything to help encourage more gun owners to do the right thing. And, if a gun owner knows they have a problem person living with them, maybe the gun community could help get a fund together to provide safe storage for those in need. In fact, a group of well minded folks on this forum did just that for a member a few months ago - they pooled together funds, bought the safe and installed it for the guy when it was learned he had a family member in the home that may be a threat. That's the kind of solution I think more folks can get behind. I just prefer to keep the government out of it wherever possible.

 

[nwslopoke]

Education. Every blue moon that term pops up. So little firearms education. Schools teach their version of sex education. Schools used to teach a relatively unbiased version of sex, driving and in some cases firearms education.

I guess people are too stupid to learn these days. What else could the reason be? Can't be money. George, Clooney, George Soros, Bloomberg, Oprah and others supply tons of money. Yep, it must be people are too stupid to learn.

 

[oneharmonic]

The father of the killer confirmed in an interview that his son "took the guns from the closet".

The closet?

We're going to lose our rights because this moron decided to leave his guns and ammunition unsecured around a mentally disturbed adolescent.

 

[awshoot]

The father of the killer confirmed in an interview that his son "took the guns from the closet".

The closet?

We're going to lose our rights because this moron decided to leave his guns and ammunition unsecured around a mentally disturbed adolescent.

But that isn't the kid they knew (*)! /sarcasm

(*) ... We are gratified by the public comments made by other Santa Fe High School students that show Dimitri as we know him: a smart, quiet, sweet boy. While we remain mostly in the dark about the specifics of yesterday's tragedy, what we have learned from media reports seems incompatible with the boy we love. ...

Family of alleged Santa Fe High School shooter issues statement

(*) ... "He was a solid boy," Pagourtzis said. "I don't know what could have happened, I can't say what happened. My son, to me, is not a criminal — he's a victim." ...

Texas School Shooting: Father of Alleged Santa Fe Gunman Says His Son Was Bullied: 'He's a Victim'

Edit: second link -- the bullied one -- confirms the closet storage.

 

[3MTA3]

The father of the killer confirmed in an interview that his son "took the guns from the closet".

The closet?

We're going to lose our rights because this moron decided to leave his guns and ammunition unsecured around a mentally disturbed adolescent.

It's worse than that - the father claims his son "was a victim". Now we know how he got that way. My Dad stored his rifles and pistol on a wall rack in his bedroom. It was perfectly safe with seven kids running around because we were taught to respect everyone and their belongings and were taught about firearms early.

This "child" is old enough to join the military with a parental waiver and I hope they only charge him with one murder now and the rest on his 18th birthday so he gets tried as an adult.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Both homes I grew up in had fancy built in Gun desplay cases in the living room, and were hardly ever locked! The ammo was stored on shelves right below, and we had access to any arm, any time!
There was a loaded Smith Stubby in the kitchen by the phone, and it's twin next to the bed in Grand Parents room. The 5 grand kids, 3 great grand kids, all the cousins and aunts and uncles never got into the display cases, and even though they were always welcome, no one ever handled any thing with out asking permission! It was a large matter of pride to both my Grand parents and parents to have those was play cases full of wondrous arms and accessories, and equally great pride to pull one out and pass it around to be admired, and in rare occasions taken out and used as it was meant! Not once ever did any one ever open those cases and remove a weapon with out permission, not once!

 

[etrain16]

I had a .22 rifle in my bedroom, on a gun rack, starting at age 12. It did have a trigger lock, which my dad kept the key to, but we all know how easily those locks are defeated. It was made very clear to me that if I wanted to keep that gun, I had to follow all the rules - such as never, ever, ever pointing it at someone else, treat it like a tool, a dangerous tool, that is never to be played with, etc. I never once violated those rules, nor did I ever, even when I was bullied, feel the need to use that gun on someone else. When I turned 16, he gave me the key and I was fully in control of that gun from that point on.

There are much deeper issues at play here than simply having access to a firearm at home. That said, if the parents knew this kid had issues, they should have had a much stronger means of securing those guns, or had them removed from the home altogether.

 

[awshoot]

Parents are often the LAST to know if their kids have issues -- I reference the family statement and dad's statement above. People who have kids should secure their guns, those who don't clearly don't care about the rights of their fellow gun owners.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I believe the major underlying issue here is the kids having an "On-Line" presence that isn't being regulated or monitored by the parents, to include online gaming! F.B. and other sights like it, places where kids can bully each other are not a healthy environment, especially given the selective moderation that allows that sort of thing to continue! And, finally, cell phones! Every kid now days has a phone ( and most adults) so the info exchange is 24/7/365, with zero filtering, so these people are fully immersed in the digital world that has become a false reality to them, and the real world becomes foreign!

 

[ZigZagZeke]

On the other hand, as we discovered with the Parkland shooting, the murderer in that situation was displaying very obvious signs that he shouldn't have firearms.

We'll see where the cards fall with this latest shooting.

You mean, the murderer was displaying very obvious signs that he shouldn't have be walking freely among us, right? That's what this really boils down to. If we can't trust someone not to murder multiple people with guns, why are we comfortable with them walking the streets at all?

 

[mkwerx]

You mean, the murderer was displaying very obvious signs that he shouldn't have be walking freely among us, right? That's what this really boils down to. If we can't trust someone not to murder multiple people with guns, why are we comfortable with them walking the streets at all?

I wish we still had state hospitals for these people to be admitted to, vs being out in the general public. Some need locked away in solitary confinement, others belong in prison for life.

 

[titsonritz]

So mass murder is an acceptable response to bullying. Check
And the murderer is the victim. Check

Is it really any wonder how we got here?

 

[Boboclown]

It's worse than that - the father claims his son "was a victim". Now we know how he got that way. My Dad stored his rifles and pistol on a wall rack in his bedroom. It was perfectly safe with seven kids running around because we were taught to respect everyone and their belongings and were taught about firearms early.

This "child" is old enough to join the military with a parental waiver and I hope they only charge him with one murder now and the rest on his 18th birthday so he gets tried as an adult.

Doesn't work that way. In order to be charged with the rest they have to consider the age it has happened.

That aside, in murder cases the person on trial waives their right to be charged as a juvenile so he's still getting life (ironically cheaper than death). His cellmate will likely collect vaseline.

 

[mkwerx]

So mass murder is an acceptable response to bullying. Check
And the murderer is the victim. Check

Is it really any wonder how we got here?

Parents uninvolved in their kids lives, not setting a good solid example and holding the little turds accountable from an early age. Its someone else's fault their kid can't cope, makes bad decisions, and has mental issues - these parents never own their responsibility or failures. If my kid had those problems, I'd probably move my guns out of the house until he's better (in terms of just typical confusion/anger/emotion, or if he is treatable with meds and actually takes them regularly) or he's out of the house. I would not want to endanger others if I knew my kid had issues and violent potential. But too many parents won't be honest with themselves, and they won't see the problems with their kids for what they are.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I'm ok with it. I already do it anyway because I have kids in the house. Shoot, I would do it even if I didn't.

My guns are in a VERY secure safe at all times when I'm not using them. I have kids ranging from 3 to 45 years old. A couple are male 20-somethings. My home defense weapons are in quick access, biometric controlled mini-safes. I'd be in favor of a law that guaranteed no criminal or civil liability for the owner for properly stored firearms. Don't store them properly and you'd be on your own as far as criminal and civil negligence. Does that motivate me? Certainly it does. Why else would I carry a very, very large umbrella liability policy?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Okay, but HOW are you going to get caught? Are police going to enter your home every now and then making sure you're compliant? Do we systematically screw people that rent homes and can't bolt a safe to the floor? Or apartments?

Didn't know the 2nd Amendment should only apply to people who can afford to buy a house!

Write a statute that encourages voluntary compliance and mandates that landlords allow it. What it would say is that if your weapons are securely stored according to the standards in the statute, you are exempt from any criminal or civil liability for anything an unauthorized person does with your firearms. If you don't care to adopt those standards then you are on your own as far as liability. No inspections required. Compliance is voluntary. I'd say you would obtain a very high compliance rate without inspections or certifications.

 

[bbbass]

Kids w/o parents involved. Hearts with no love, no God (spirituality).

I read an article several years ago that pointed out how we are raising little Lords and Princesses, as opposed to how things were done in the past. IMO that is because in so many cases both parents work and feel guilty, and for some reason I can't fathom they think their child is (abnormally) special. Then what happens is that these kids are in charge. If you ever want to know what happens when you put young boys in charge, read the classic "Lord of the Flies". They become little savages. Sooooo, one or two or more bullies, then a savage response. It's pretty clear to me.

IMO children don't respond well to "it takes a village". Life for them is too complex, too stressful, and not enough closeness to a source of love and guidance. Schools are not parents no matter what they think. For example: what happens when a young person is being raised by Grandma because Mom has to work since Dad has abandoned the family? Gang membership is what. The gang leader becomes the loving parent. Yeah that works well. We need to think about how to get Mom back in the home. How to prevent Dads from walking away. Could it be that welfare and no-fault divorce were a negative social experiment?

We need to have parents that sit down to a dinner with their kids and have family chitchat without electronic distractions. Maybe we need to ban cellphones at school. Maybe we need to have an age requirement to access the internet.

People, slow down!!! We need to have parents be an active part of their kids lives. Talk to them, be with them, don't just use $20 or electronics as a babysitter. No cellphones or internet in kids rooms. Yeah, I wish.

IMO mental health is not the issue with young mass murderers, those not in their 20s. That has occured in several incidents (theater, Gabby, Umpqua, VMI, etc.) But school shooting seem to be something else at work. However, giving kids Ritalin to control their behavior has negative consequences after puberty. Ritalin has been found to change the structure of the developing brain. Not in a good way. Secondly, SSRIs, a very common anti-depressant, is over-prescribed to the general public, but especially to our youth. What is the reason all these youngsters need anti-depressants?... Reread the above comments. It's not easy being an abandoned youth today. But, I can tell you giving young people SSRIs is a mistake. The problem is missed doses. A patient that is discontinuing an SSRI needs to be weaned off over a period of time. But with kids, what if they are not taking their meds? Do they forget or just not want to? Are the parents making sure the doses are being administered? I can tell you from personal experience that when these SSRI "happy pills" are quit cold turkey, anger becomes an issue. I don't know why. Must be some brain chemical thing. But IMO it's too dangerous to put kids in that position. We need to stop giving kids these meds!!!!

I have other thoughts, but I'm not too articulate this morn.