a total loser (IMHO)

[dmancornell]

DMAN - you just make stuff up as you go along - in support of your own way of thinking wether it is based on reality or not. The confederacy was never a recognized country by anyone but themselves - they never actually succeeded.

James Ruby

LOL, didn't we just celebrate July 4th, Independence Day, when the United States was established as a sovereign nation on July 4, 1776, as in 7 years before the Revolutionary War ended.

Also implying a free nation requires foreign recognition. Most countries did not recognize the United States as an independent nation until 1783 (notably except France), that doesn't stop us from saying we were independent since 7/4/1776.

 

[gunnoob75]

Burt, maybe he just should not have joined the Army during war time. If he was so against the war in question, as you speculate.

 

[JGRuby]

LOL, didn't we just celebrate July 4th, Independence Day, when the United States was established as a sovereign nation on July 4, 1776, as in 7 years before the Revolutionary War ended.

Also implying a free nation requires foreign recognition.

Again we were talking abiout the civil war - keep to the subject.

James Ruby

 

[dmancornell]

^

I am merely applying the same standards of recognition on the seceding side for both the American Revolutionary War and the Civil War.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I don't understand you guys that are defending the way this guy is going about this.
He knows the way out, all he has to do is take it.
It's not like he was drafted/conscripted into service.

You guys seem to think he should get the military's blessing for it on his way out the door.
Sorry folks, that ain't the way it works.
No separation pay, no veteran's benefits etc. Just the door.
Of course, he can't do it based on what some of you guys think. He has to be opposed to ALL WAR to qualify for C.O. status. That's the rules.
That's what tripped up Muhammed Ali, when he said: "I ain't got no problem with them Viet Cong."
If he wants out because he doesn't want to fight for bankers, or the CIA or the poppy farmers, he's screwed.
Or, if he just refuses to kill "brown people" that's not good enough either, under the rules of C.O. status.
THAT ISN'T HOW IT WORKS!
Or he could take the dishonorable discharge route and just not show up.

I never said he needed to be discharged dishonorably though.
I believe he is entitled to a conditional discharge in my way of thinking. Just not an honorable one.
In order to get that, he needs to serve the term he signed up for.

End of story. No drama, no sweat. Don't let the door hit ya,....
Bye!

If, based on the strength of his convictions, he just can't continue, then he'll bail regardless of the consequences.
If he feels that strongly about it, I don't understand his objection(s) to a less than honorable discharge.
Or the people here that insist on defending his methodology.
Unless they don't understand conscientious objections.

 

[JGRuby]

^

I am merely applying the same standards of recognition on the seceding side for both the American Revolutionary War and the Civil War.

Ok- all states - 13th of them agreed to the declaration of independence which meant that we were actually a seperate country an agreement was signed by all 13 states to become a seperate country on July 2nd 1776 - we as teh united states agreed . In the Civil war - it was not unanimous that the southern states would succeed- only 11 actually tried a subset of the population. They had no legal right to succeed and the country as a whole did not recognize it as such the south never actually succeeded to the point they became a seperate country.

James Ruby

 

[JedB]

Succeed = Accomplish a goal.

Secede = Withdraw from something.

== == == ==

The person people are discussing should
a) Take no benefits, get discharged.
b) Get the benefits, fulfill his contract.

No mix & match in my opinion.

While there may be other isolated individuals, the only group I know of that has Conscientious Objector status are the Quakers.

 

[Brutus57]

James Ruby, I gotta ask, did you just get assigned boomers or did you ask for boomers? Probably the only thing keeping the Chinese or Russians from tossing the big ones for 3 decades plus is the fact that if just ONE Trident survives they are toast along with the rest of the world.
Call me old fashioned but I thought all these things through before I raised my hand and took the oath. But then my dad was a WWII combat aircrewman on B 29s against the Empire of Japan, my father in law a 3 hot war vet (WWII, Korea,RVN), my brother an AF missile squadron commander when he swore me in and others in my family served before or since.

i commend you for standing your personal moral ground even though it cost you a career. In hindsight there were other less martial rates available perhaps.

Clearly this kid had to know the odds he might be deployed. Nothing against bandsmen but perhaps he should went for that specialty.
Nevertheless, thank you for your service.
Brutus Out

 

[gtivan]

Sounds more like a case of cold feet than C.O. He completed initial training on April 2013, is 22 yr old, with a 3 year old child and married.

If he wasn't considering all the possibilities before joining the service within the last year, the MAN (sarcasm) was a moron.

About PV2 Munoz ? PV2 Christopher Munoz

 

[Redcap]

A Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank check payable to the United States of America for an amount up to, and including, their life.

Call me a jerk, or whatever you want but unless you've done the above....your opinion doesn't mean squat regarding this topic.
This oxygen thief/coward needs to make good on his oath, his check, etc.
Brutus Out.

Elitist attitudes like that make me quite glad I was never able to be accepted into your little 'club'.

 

[dmancornell]

Ok- all states - 13th of them agreed to the declaration of independence which meant that we were actually a seperate country an agreement was signed by all 13 states to become a seperate country on July 2nd 1776 - we as teh united states agreed . In the Civil war - it was not unanimous that the southern states would succeed- only 11 actually tried a subset of the population.

Fine, then two states were disputed territory, the other eleven states were a sovereign nation.

They had no legal right to succeed and the country as a whole did not recognize it

Already addressed, the legal ruling in 1869 has no relevance to legality of secession in 1861. Individual states simply had to renounce the authority of the federal government, because the Constitution did not say the federal government had the right to compel states to stay in the union.

as such the south never actually succeeded to the point they became a seperate country.

Only because of northern aggression. The CSA was as legitimate as the United States was during the Revolutionary War.

Anyways, I'm done talking about the (In)civil war, this issue was only relevant as to point out the absurdity of military "justice".

 

[PiratePast40]

Elitist attitudes like that make me quite glad I was never able to be accepted into your little 'club'.

You were rejected by the military and now decide that all who served are somehow low lifes?

WTF???? You're attacking all veterans now? Where in the heck does that come from?

I believe you're stepping way out of bounds with this one!

 

[Brutus57]

Originally Posted by Redcap
Elitist attitudes like that make me quite glad I was never able to be accepted into your little 'club'.

You were rejected by the military and now decide that all who served are somehow low lifes?

WTF???? You're attacking all veterans now? Where in the heck does that come from?

I believe you're stepping way out of bounds with this one!

Personally I am not totally offended by Redcap's remark. I don't think what I said is in any way, shape, or form "elitist". I am simply saying this guy probably enjoyed all the benefits he got from the military but when they asked him to do his duty which HE SWORE to do! He tried to renege. My point in my above post is that the opinion of those who haven't served in the military don't truly understand what that oath means to 99.9999 % of us who have had the PRIVILEGE of wearing the uniform and serving our nation and those that have paid the ultimate price in the past and still do. They are welcome to their opinion, but I am also welcome to my informed and educated opinion of their uninformed and uneducated opinion. It also makes me quite glad that they didn't make it in to the club if they choose to defend an oath breaker. Ain't Freedom of Speech Grand!

Brutus Out.

 

[JGRuby]

James Ruby, I gotta ask, did you just get assigned boomers or did you ask for boomers? Probably the only thing keeping the Chinese or Russians from tossing the big ones for 3 decades plus is the fact that if just ONE Trident survives they are toast along with the rest of the world.
Call me old fashioned but I thought all these things through before I raised my hand and took the oath. But then my dad was a WWII combat aircrewman on B 29s against the Empire of Japan, my father in law a 3 hot war vet (WWII, Korea,RVN), my brother an AF missile squadron commander when he swore me in and others in my family served before or since.

i commend you for standing your personal moral ground even though it cost you a career. In hindsight there were other less martial rates available perhaps.

Clearly this kid had to know the odds he might be deployed. Nothing against bandsmen but perhaps he should went for that specialty.
Nevertheless, thank you for your service.
Brutus Out

It is a fair question - I chose to go Trident - I chose to be a instructor / maintenance person on the MK 118 defensive weapons control system that the trident class uses for defensive purposes. I served my time at Bangor - Trident Training Facility for approximately 5 years or so. Once you get in that program you are stuck - kind of like volunteering for something / committing there is no unvolunteering. So yes I was the one that put myself in that position. I will add however there is a big difference between thinking about it and being there. Yes a deterrent is only good such as a nuclear weapon is only a good deterrent until it is used. Its kinda of like planting a bomb in your house to kill intruders when the truth of the matter it kills even the owner of the house. There is a concept of called MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - both sides lose. I completed that patrol on that boat and only once we got back in port did I refuse to do anything more with the Trident program- by that time I had been closely examined. It is my opinion that none of the big powers will use nukes on each other because they have too much to lose it is the terrorist groups that will use them if they can obtain them. The problem the Navy had is that I knew too much about the projects and they did not want that to come to light - I did not want to bring that to light I simply wanted to complete my commitment with the Navy and leave.

Yes I made some mistakes and if given the chance I would have played my cards different and retired from the service. The problem is that those cards only get played once- there are no mulligans. I am not upset with the Navy - I got a degree, a trade and grew up. The Navy got 13+ years of my life of which 3.5+ years was spent under water. I am proud of my service prior to that last patrol.

James Ruby

 

[Scott]

Elitist attitudes like that make me quite glad I was never able to be accepted into your little 'club'.

Your right, it is an elite club and less than 1% of America belongs.

So it shows who the real men are and obviously they put America ahead of them selves. It is a damn good club.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

 

[dmancornell]

Your right, it is an elite club and less than 1% of America belongs.

So it shows who the real men are and obviously they put America ahead of them selves. It is a damn good club.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

Putting America ahead of themselves by working for the government.

Hahahahahahaha... nope.

 

[JGRuby]

There are two types of people in this world; - those that think they are the center of the universe and those that realize that there are things more important than themselves in this world, those that believe that there are things worth laying your life on the line to protect. I am proud to belong to the latter.

James Ruby

 

[Scott]

Putting America ahead of themselves by working for the government.

Hahahahahahaha... nope.

You are a fricking joke. You just don't get it. You never will either but keep making fun of military people.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

 

[dmancornell]

There are two types of people in this world; - those that think they are the center of the universe and those that realize that there are things more important than themselves in this world, those that believe that there are things worth laying your life on the line to protect. I am proud to belong to the latter.

James Ruby

Agreed. It's just that the federal government, the American ruling class and the military-industrial complex aren't worth protecting.

I'll never tire of posting this masterpiece: War Is A Racket, By Major General Smedley Butler

You are a fricking joke. You just don't get it. You never will either but keep making fun of military people.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night, killer.

 

[iusmc2002]

You are a fricking joke. You just don't get it. You never will either but keep making fun of military people.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

Man, I've got a brick wall here at home that you can come beat your head against if you want. It's as entertaining as "debating" someone who CONSTANTLY rails against the federal government and how evil they are, but the only thing he's ever done about it was wave a Ron Paul sign at someone..... He is a non-stop anachronism; he's got GREAT Google-fu though, so he can dazzle you with his awesomeness!