a total loser (IMHO)

[dmancornell]

@ dmancornell

I need to clarify something from your last post.
You feel the armed services does nothing for freedom and that people who enlisted are/were just a bunch of thugs doing the deeds of a gangster government, is that correct?

Thug = your word, not mine. As I said, I believe *most* people do it because they believe it is honorable. Naive maybe, not thuggish.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Scott - yes and we are shining examples of how to treat people, look at Gitmo, torture, occupations, assassinations of Americans, camps, build up to arm against our own people, etc - or 100s of other examples.

Have you ever even met someone from the Middle East? Befriended or even talked to someone from Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iran, etc? You will find that they are some of the most jovial and kind people you will ever meet. People here are just TOLD to hate, so, they hate. (Watch 'Reel Bad Arabs' to get a feel as to why Americans are so thoroughly brainwashed into hating people from the ME).

The Taliban were religious zealots (like we are here, just a different brand) and nearly eradicated all the poppy fields and production. WE re-established it, rebuilt it all for our own means. We have soldiers guarding the fields, helping the opium farmers for christs sake LOL - you've seen it with your own eyes. You've been watching too much Fox News and gobbling up the propaganda.

I'd sure like to hear a valid reason why we are still killing people in Afghanistan. There is none. Actually, the majority of people are aware of that fact, and want us out of there, but it won't happen because we are nothing more than an Oligarchy. Your input on the matter as a common stock in the corporation is insignificant, you do not matter.

Anyway you slice it, when you look at the facts with an open mind, we are no better than anyone else on any level. So it is time to stop acting like we are the good guys and everyone else is 'evil.' Simply nonsense and propaganda/programming. Again, the same powers that have us in Afghanistan want you disarmed and in a surveillance/police state cage right here.

You can ignore reality, but not the consequences of ignoring reality.

I am done with this frustrating subject as it is abundantly clear that 98% of Americans are just so deluded and controlled that it is hopeless. Eventually our Empire will die (economically, not militarily) and the world will not cry for us. We will be missed like a bad case of crabs. Everyone elses standard of living will go up and what is left here will be reduced to caveman status, basket on head, pick for insects.

Like the bumper sticker says "ALL EMPIRES DIE, BUT NOT THIS ONE, I AM PRETTY SURE THIS ONE WILL LAST FOREVER"

 

[Irishjester]

@ dmancornell

Thank you for your response. I was taking some offense from your previous post and I appreciate you giving me a little clarification in your way of thinking. I don't think we can see eye to eye on the subject of the benefits of military service.

 

[dmancornell]

@ dmancornell

Thank you for your response. I was taking some offense from your previous post and I appreciate you giving me a little clarification in your way of thinking. I don't think we can see eye to eye on the subject of the benefits of military service.

Please, list said benefits.

 

[Irishjester]

@ dmancornell

Sorry for this short post, I'm sure others can add, but I have to go, and didn't want to leave you hanging.

Respect - Seems most parents neglect to teach their kids this.
Integrity - Doing what you know in your heart is right, even if no one is around.
Team work - Working with others who may not have the same opinions as you.
Loyalty - Devoting yourself wholly to something or someone.
Selflessness - Putting others before yourself.
Honor - Putting everything into anything you do, keeping your word.
Sacrifice - Giving up what is yours so other may have the same or better
Courage - Standing up for yourself and others.
First hand account and education of what freedom is and how important it is to fight for it.
Seeing what evil men do if no one stands up to them.
Coming back to the states with all this knowledge and experience, then trying to educate civilians about the freedoms they take for granted.
Fighting for the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

[dmancornell]

@ dmancornell

Sorry for this short post, I'm sure others can add, but I have to go, and didn't want to leave you hanging.

Respect - Seems most parents neglect to teach their kids this.
Integrity - Doing what you know in your heart is right, even if no one is around.
Team work - Working with others who may not have the same opinions as you.
Loyalty - Devoting yourself wholly to something or someone.
Selflessness - Putting others before yourself.
Honor - Putting everything into anything you do, keeping your word.
Sacrifice - Giving up what is yours so other may have the same or better
Courage - Standing up for yourself and others.

Respect - The government respects nothing but its own power, how can it teach anyone else what deserves respect? Respect is easy, recognizing what deserves respect is the hard part.
Integrity - Doing what's right, isn't that what conscientious objectors and whistleblowers do? Like Bradley Manning, the soldier who is being persecuted by a military tribunal? And doesn't the armed forces have a massive problem with sexual assaults and callous dismissal of victims' claims? Some integrity.
Team work - Can be learned anywhere. Probably not so well from the organization that maintained "Don't ask don't tell" for decades.
Loyalty - Fair enough, but I'd pick a better cause to be loyal to.
Selflessness - Samaritans exist everywhere. The state doesn't teach sacrifice.
Honor - The state cannot teach honor, for it has none. The military should know that, they were on the receiving end of the state's dishonor for centuries. Western Betrayal, Gulf of Tonkin, the M16 malfunction debacle that got GI's killed, PRISM lies just the other week, I could go on.
Sacrifice - See selflessness
Courage - See above

First hand account and education of what freedom is and how important it is to fight for it.

Since the US is not a free country, I doubt the armed wing of the government can teach you what freedom is.

Seeing what evil men do if no one stands up to them.

Too bad the military has been answering to evil men (i.e. politicians) for decades.

Coming back to the states with all this knowledge and experience, then trying to educate civilians about the freedoms they take for granted.

The US is not a free country, therefore nobody takes anything for granted. The military is answering to the very entity that has taken away our freedoms.

Fighting for the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Not for many, many years. Every war since WW2 has been unconstitutionally fought, since Congress gave no approval. How can you fight for the Constitution by engaging in an unconstitutional, foreign war?

I guess one could learn about respect/honor/integrity from the military, but only if one can deal with the massive cognitive dissonance resulting from working for an entity that has none of the above. Or by refusing to obey illegal orders and quitting. Latter is better.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Respect - The government respects nothing but its own power, how can it teach anyone else what deserves respect? Respect is easy, recognizing what deserves respect is the hard part.
Integrity - Doing what's right, isn't that what conscientious objectors and whistleblowers do? Like Bradley Manning, the soldier who is being persecuted by a military tribunal? And doesn't the armed forces have a massive problem with sexual assaults and callous dismissal of victims' claims? Some integrity.
Team work - Can be learned anywhere. Probably not so well from the organization that maintained "Don't ask don't tell" for decades.
Loyalty - Fair enough, but I'd pick a better cause to be loyal to.
Selflessness - Samaritans exist everywhere. The state doesn't teach sacrifice.
Honor - The state cannot teach honor, for it has none. The military should know that, they were on the receiving end of the state's dishonor for centuries. Western Betrayal, Gulf of Tonkin, the M16 malfunction debacle that got GI's killed, PRISM lies just the other week, I could go on.
Sacrifice - See selflessness
Courage - See above

Since the US is not a free country, I doubt the armed wing of the government can teach you what freedom is.
Too bad the military has been answering to evil men (i.e. politicians) for decades.
The US is not a free country, therefore nobody takes anything for granted. The military is answering to the very entity that has taken away our freedoms.
Not for many, many years. Every war since WW2 has been unconstitutionally fought, since Congress gave no approval. How can you fight for the Constitution by engaging in an unconstitutional, foreign war?

So tell us Dman,...
Do you believe your reasons, quoted above, are grounds for a Conscientious Objector discharge?

 

[Father of four]

I have respect for the American citizens who have joined the military but I do have one question.....why are so many soldiers killing themselves?

There must be a problem.

 

[dmancornell]

So tell us Dman,...
Do you believe your reasons, quoted above, are grounds for a Conscientious Objector discharge?

Yes. One cannot support and defend the Constitution if the employer is actively destroying the Constitution. The only way to keep the oath is to quit.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Yes.

Then you would be wrong. The true Conscientious Objector has to have convictions that forbid him from participating in any and all wars, regardless of their motivation or objective.
To the true C.O., killing in the name of war is an aberration.

One cannot support and defend the Constitution if the employer is actively destroying the Constitution. The only way to keep the oath is to quit.

Now that I agree with.
That he should quit, regardless of his reason(s).
He will be given a chance to state his case at his court martial.

But who knows, maybe his reasons for not supporting THIS war don't have anything to do with the stuff you came up with.

 

[dmancornell]

Then you would be wrong. The true Conscientious Objector has to have convictions that forbid him from participating in any and all wars, regardless of their motivation or objective.
To the true C.O., killing in the name of war is an aberration.

If a soldier served in the Revolutionary War, then refused to serve in campaigns against Native Americans because he believes them to be unjust, that is not legitimate case for conscientious objection?

 

[Father of four]

Here is a good read ..... Soldier's suicide note goes viral; family demands better for veterans - CNN.com

"...In February, the VA released findings of a study that has saturated national op-eds and Washington news conferences ever since: 22 U.S. military veterans commit suicide every day.

Somers was outraged by the statistic.

"Is it any wonder then that the latest figures show 22 veterans killing themselves each day? That is more veterans than children killed at Sandy Hook, every single day," he wrote.

"Where are the huge policy initiatives? Why isn't the president standing with those families at the state of the union? Perhaps because we were not killed by a single lunatic, but rather by his own system of dehumanization, neglect, and indifference." 325 Army suicides in 2012 a record ..."

 

[Father of four]

Very interesting....By the numbers: U.S. war veterans - CNN.com


"CNN) -- There are still more than 1.7 million Americans alive who served in World War II, but that number is dwindling fast.

With much of the "Greatest Generation" now in their 80s and 90s, hundreds of these veterans are dying every day, according to the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.

By the year 2036, the VA estimates, there will no longer be any living veterans from the conflict.

The last World War I veteran, Frank Buckles, died in February 2011.

Here's a look at who fought in past U.S. wars and who's still alive today:

American Revolution (1775-1783)
U.S. servicemembers: 184,000-250,000 (estimated)
Deaths: 4,435
Wounded: 6,188
Last veteran: Daniel F. Bakeman, died in 1869 at age 109

War of 1812 (1812-1815)
U.S. servicemembers: 286,730
Deaths: 2,260
Wounded: 4,505
Last veteran: Hiram Cronk, died in 1905 at age 105

Indian Wars (approximately 1817-1898)
U.S. servicemembers: 106,000 (estimated)
Deaths: 1,000 (estimated)
Last veteran: Fredrak Fraske, died in 1973 at age 101

Mexican War (1846-1848)
U.S. servicemembers: 78,718
Deaths: 13,283
Wounded: 4,152
Last veteran: Owen Thomas Edgar, died in 1929 at age 98

Civil War (1861-1865)
Union servicemembers: 2,213,363
Confederate servicemembers: 600,000-1,500,000 (estimated)
Union deaths: 364,511
Confederate deaths: 133,821 (estimated)
Union wounded: 281,881
Confederate wounded: Unknown
Last veteran: John Salling, died in 1958 at age 112

Spanish-American War (1898-1902)
U.S. servicemembers: 306,760
Deaths: 2,446 (385 in battle)
Wounded: 1,662
Last veteran: Nathan E. Cook, died in 1992 at age 106

World War I (1917-1918)
U.S. servicemembers: 4,734,991
Deaths: 116,516 (53,402 in battle)
Wounded: 204,002
Last veteran: Frank Buckles, died in 2011 at age 110

World War II (1941-1945)
U.S. servicemembers: 16,112,566
Deaths: 405,399 (291,557 in battle)
Wounded: 670,846
Estimated living veterans: 1,711,000

Korean War (1950-1953)
U.S. servicemembers: 5,720,000
Deaths: 54,246 (36,574 in theater)
Wounded: 103,284
Estimated living veterans: 2,275,000

Vietnam War (1964-1975)
U.S. servicemembers: 8,744,000 (estimated 3,403,000 deployed)
Deaths: 90,220 (58,220 in theater)
Wounded: 153,303
Estimated living veterans: 7,391,000

Desert Shield/Desert Storm (1990-1991)
U.S. servicemembers: 2,322,000 (694,550 deployed)
Deaths: 1,948 (383 in theater)
Wounded: 467
Estimated living veterans: 2,244,583 (2009 estimate, may include veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan)

Source: U.S. Department of Veterans Affair "

 

[Jamie6.5]

If a soldier served in the Revolutionary War, then refused to serve in campaigns against Native Americans because he believes them to be unjust, that is not legitimate case for conscientious objection?

Not by definition, no.
Conscientious objector - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR
: a person who refuses to serve in the armed forces or bear arms on moral or religious grounds

OR:

conscientious objector
noun (Concise Encyclopedia)

One who opposes participation in military service, on the basis of religious, philosophical, or political belief. A feature of Western society since the beginning of the Christian era, conscientious objection developed as a doctrine of the Mennonites (16th century), the Society of Friends (17th century), and others. Exemptions may be unconditional, conditioned on alternative civilian service, or limited to combat duty. Those who refuse conscription may face imprisonment. Philosophical or political reasons are acceptable grounds for exemption in many European countries, but the U.S. recognizes only membership in a religious group that endorses pacifism.

I suppose if your RWS had a "Come to Jesus" moment after the 1st war, and decided he could never again kill another human being, then he might be eligible.

This was explained to Pvt. Munoz BEFORE he signed on the dotted line.
You don't get to pick and choose who you are willing to kill in the name of your country, without legal ramifications.

You either believe in killing or you don't.
It's as simple as that.

 

[Father of four]

Well, just for anyone interested in it here is Daniel Somers last letter... ?I Am Sorry That It Has Come to This?: A Soldier's Last Words


"...You must not blame yourself. The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of.

To force me to do these things and then participate in the ensuing coverup is more than any government has the right to demand. Then, the same government has turned around and abandoned me. They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them. ..."

 

[dmancornell]

Not by definition, no.
Conscientious objector - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I suppose if your RWS had a "Come to Jesus" moment after the 1st war, and decided he could never again kill another human being, then he might be eligible.

This was explained to Pvt. Munoz BEFORE he signed on the dotted line.
You don't get to pick and choose who you are willing to kill in the name of your country, without legal ramifications.

You either believe in killing or you don't.
It's as simple as that.

Strictly by the letter of the law, yes, you are correct.

But that simply proves the absurdity of "military justice", or rather, "military law". Applying a just moral standard to decide who you are going to kill for the government is the definition of conscience.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Strictly by the letter of the law, yes, you are correct.

And that law was thoroughly explained to Mr. Munoz before he became Private Munoz.

So the military is holding him to his word, and his legal obligation per the contract he signed.

The fact remains, he can still quit, and have his day in court to explain his reasons.
He doesn't need to smear all the people that truly have pacifist convictions with this sham of an excuse.

 

[dmancornell]

And that law was thoroughly explained to Mr. Munoz before he became Private Munoz.

So the military is holding him to his word, and his legal obligation per the contract he signed.

The fact remains, he can still quit, and have his day in court to explain his reasons.
He doesn't need to smear all the people that truly have pacifist convictions with this sham of an excuse.

What is the point of legal obligations when one party is a criminal organization that breaks laws whenever it sees fit?

 

[Scott]

Scott - yes and we are shining examples of how to treat people, look at Gitmo, torture, occupations, assassinations of Americans, camps, build up to arm against our own people, etc - or 100s of other examples.

Have you ever even met someone from the Middle East? Befriended or even talked to someone from Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iran, etc? You will find that they are some of the most jovial and kind people you will ever meet. People here are just TOLD to hate, so, they hate. (Watch 'Reel Bad Arabs' to get a feel as to why Americans are so thoroughly brainwashed into hating people from the ME).

The Taliban were religious zealots (like we are here, just a different brand) and nearly eradicated all the poppy fields and production. WE re-established it, rebuilt it all for our own means. We have soldiers guarding the fields, helping the opium farmers for christs sake LOL - you've seen it with your own eyes. You've been watching too much Fox News and gobbling up the propaganda.

I'd sure like to hear a valid reason why we are still killing people in Afghanistan. There is none. Actually, the majority of people are aware of that fact, and want us out of there, but it won't happen because we are nothing more than an Oligarchy. Your input on the matter as a common stock in the corporation is insignificant, you do not matter.

Anyway you slice it, when you look at the facts with an open mind, we are no better than anyone else on any level. So it is time to stop acting like we are the good guys and everyone else is 'evil.' Simply nonsense and propaganda/programming. Again, the same powers that have us in Afghanistan want you disarmed and in a surveillance/police state cage right here.

You can ignore reality, but not the consequences of ignoring reality.

I am done with this frustrating subject as it is abundantly clear that 98% of Americans are just so deluded and controlled that it is hopeless. Eventually our Empire will die (economically, not militarily) and the world will not cry for us. We will be missed like a bad case of crabs. Everyone elses standard of living will go up and what is left here will be reduced to caveman status, basket on head, pick for insects.

Like the bumper sticker says "ALL EMPIRES DIE, BUT NOT THIS ONE, I AM PRETTY SURE THIS ONE WILL LAST FOREVER"

Burt,

We will have to disagree to disagree.

I spent over a total of 30 months in the ME. So I have met a lot. And more would rather kill me than be friends.

What's wrong with GITMO? They are treated better than prisoners here.

Plus when we withdraw from Afghanistan the Taliban will take are place again and rule the country. Then they will kill a lot of people and keep that heroin coming back here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

 

[dmancornell]

I spent over a total of 30 months in the ME. So I have met a lot. And more would rather kill me than be friends.

Understandably so, given the sordid history of Anglo-American misadventures in the region, engineering coups and propping up despots.

Maybe if you didn't travel there as a armed representative of the US government they would've been less hostile.

What's wrong with GITMO? They are treated better than prisoners here.

Implying that makes it right.

Plus when we withdraw from Afghanistan the Taliban will take are place again and rule the country. Then they will kill a lot of people and keep that heroin coming back here.

Funny how the Talibs managed to wipe out the heroin trade in Afghanistan before the US barged in and killed a lot of people. And now we have the gall to complain about their poppy crop when the entire reason it is highly profitable is because of the American led drug war.

Taliban and US government: comrades in intolerance and murder!