Oregon TRO granted on 114!

[Kruel J]

Yeah I have seen many people not answer both the 18 questions too. At least that one doesn't require a line out and initials.

How are you seeing all these 4473s if you're not an FFL?

 

[arakboss]

How are you seeing all these 4473s if you're not an FFL?

I play one on TV.

 

[Kruel J]

I play one on TV.

Nice answer. I don't want anyone involved in my firearm transactions besides me and the licensed FFL. I don't need any armchair quarterbacks, bad actors or wannabes getting involved in my personal sh!t.

 

[156256Hunter]

The 2023 revisions are going to be creating more confusion and I believe that is the main reason for the changes. There are going to be lots of horizontal lines and initials next year.

Also assume Oregon will add a "coloring page" with the word "COEXIST" in gigantic letters, for applicants to color in.

If the coloring doesn't conform (inside all lines!), then you void the application and are DQ'd for a year from re-applying.

 

[Yarome]

How are you seeing all these 4473s if you're not an FFL?

Downloadable from the ATF site. Not mandatory yet, but FFL's have been encouraged to print them off and start using them.

 

[Kruel J]

Downloadable from the ATF site. Not mandatory yet, but FFL's have been encouraged to print them off and start using them.

Yes, I am aware. I meant how is he seeing them not filled out correctly. Why would someone who is filling one out with all their personal information want someone else who isn't an FFL and isn't part of the transaction to see their form? To me, it's not much different than telling random strangers you can help them with their credit or personal finances but not have any license, bond or insurance to do so.

 

[TTSX]

Filling out a 4473 correctly seems like a decent reading comprehension/IQ test to me. If you can't manage clear instructions, out the door you go. Come back when you've finished the 4th grade book list.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Filling out a 4473 correctly seems like a decent reading comprehension/IQ test to me. If you can't manage clear instructions, out the door you go. Come back when you've finished the 4th grade book list.

That question at the end about alien then next subquestion you put "NA" I always make a point of asking FFL about it no matter what, just so I don't have to remember and maybe get it wrong. That one is totally counterintuitive imo but otherwise yea it's really basic I agree.

Also to me perhaps the easiest one to screw up may be peopel thinking "county" means "country". Cuz almost every form or order we do we sometimes have to put country but almost never (never?) put county. And they look so similar. That's an easy mistake to make I think.

Also I noticed some FFLs say you have to spell out the state of birth and others say it's ok to just use abbreviation. Just a guess but I bet that comes from inconsistent instructions from ATF during their inspections (just a WAG, I don't know why some would insist on spelling it out).

 

[OrPackrat]

Yes, I am aware. I meant how is he seeing them not filled out correctly. Why would someone who is filling one out with all their personal information want someone else who isn't an FFL and isn't part of the transaction to see their form? To me, it's not much different than telling random strangers you can help them with their credit or personal finances but not have any license, bond or insurance to do so.

For me, when I help my shop out, I get the customer the 4473 and fingerprint forms, get them to fill it out, go over and confirm it matches their ID and appropriate questions answered like pointing out question 18a is separate from 18b and the basic prep.

I then hand it off to an employee to take care of the rest of the way for the appropriate transaction like inputting the customer ID that I have already verified matches the information listed.

Multiple eyes on the form in its early stages to make sure its correct helps catch errors..

Plus since I suffer from short term memory loss on things I read and go over, no worries on me remembering any personal information...

 

[arakboss]

For me, when I help my shop out, I get the customer the 4473 and fingerprint forms, get them to fill it out, go over and confirm it matches their ID and appropriate questions answered like pointing out question 18a is separate from 18b and the basic prep.

I then hand it off to an employee to take care of the rest of the way for the appropriate transaction like inputting the customer ID that I have already verified matches the information listed.

Multiple eyes on the form in its early stages to make sure its correct helps catch errors..

Plus since I suffer from short term memory loss on things I read and go over, no worries on me remembering any personal information...

For me, I dream of being an FFL and my dream customers make mistakes just like in real life.

 

[CorvallisOr]

The state is trying to establish that 10+rd mags were not in common use when OR's constitution was adopted, but that's a moot point. It doesn't matter how many rd's per mag were in common use or not. What matters is... was there any restriction on how many rd's a mag was allowed to hold or not.... and... what is in "common use" today.

That is correct for the US Second Amendment, but is the Oregon Constitution interpreted the same way?

 

[OrPackrat]

For me, I dream of being an FFL and my dream customers make mistakes just like in real life.

Those mistakes better be corrected before transaction is complete since when the ATF makes their inspection, they will correct you... lol...

Not the kind of job where you want the same kind of accuracy as the weatherman..

 

[ilikegunspdx]

The state is trying to establish that 10+rd mags were not in common use when OR's constitution was adopted, but that's a moot point. It doesn't matter how many rd's per mag were in common use or not. What matters is... was there any restriction on how many rd's a mag was allowed to hold or not.... and... what is in "common use" today.

100% agree with this. The computer analogy to first ammendment applies well here I think. "There were no computers or internet in 1791, therefore you cannot use those to exercise free speech". That woudl sound bonkers to any reasonable person. The exact same standard applies to the 2nd ammendment as it does to the first IMO.

 

[Yarome]

Multiple eyes on the form in its early stages to make sure its correct helps catch errors..

You can appreciate though that when sharing personal details, having "multiple eyes on the form" and passing info through multiple sets of hands can be a very real privacy/security issue for folks though, right?

Most would expect a business to appreciate that and for the person a customer is dealing with to be at least competent enough in their job to thoroughly check a document for errors without requiring verification from one or more others.

Identity theft is rampant and should be of serious concern to shop owners and employees to minimize those risks... not inflate them for their own ease and assurance.

Just sayin....

 

[Bobbygun]

I believe the form 4473 is an ageist document that discriminates against those of us that forgot to bring our reading glasses.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

You can appreciate though that when sharing personal details, having "multiple eyes on the form" and passing info through multiple sets of hands can be a very real privacy/security issue for folks though, right?

Most would expect a business to appreciate that and for the person a customer is dealing with to be at least competent enough in their job to thoroughly check a document for errors without requiring verification from one or more others.

Identity theft is rampant and should be of serious concern to shop owners and employees to minimize those risks... not inflate them for their own ease and assurance.

Just sayin....

Have had credit card stolen 3 times in Pdx. Twice at gas stations and once at shucks/o Reilly auto. Assume peopel will steal your info if they can, and sometimes you will be correct.

 

[Kruel J]

You can appreciate though that when sharing personal details, having "multiple eyes on the form" and passing info through multiple sets of hands can be a very real privacy/security issue for folks though, right?

Most would expect a business to appreciate that and for the person a customer is dealing with to be at least competent enough in their job to thoroughly check a document for errors without requiring verification from one or more others.

Identity theft is rampant and should be of serious concern to shop owners and employees to minimize those risks... not inflate them for their own ease and assurance.

Just sayin....

Multiple trained licensed eyes is good. Otherwise, no thanks.

 

[solv3nt]

Multiple trained licensed eyes is good. Otherwise, no thanks.

I don't know that I'd even consider an FFL employee to be a "trained eye".

 

[arakboss]

Do we know who the Plaintiff's witnesses will be for Dec 23rd hearing?

 

[OrPackrat]

You can appreciate though that when sharing personal details, having "multiple eyes on the form" and passing info through multiple sets of hands can be a very real privacy/security issue for folks though, right?

Most would expect a business to appreciate that and for the person a customer is dealing with to be at least competent enough in their job to thoroughly check a document for errors without requiring verification from one or more others.

Identity theft is rampant and should be of serious concern to shop owners and employees to minimize those risks... not inflate them for their own ease and assurance.

Just sayin....

Multiple sets of employees eyes if that helps you. Although I am not an employee there, I work a job that I have access too quite a bit of customers personal information for my duties at work. That information, even in its minimal form, has protocols for proper destruction so it can never be misused.

I may not work there officially, but if I needed a job, I could say so and be hired on the spot.

With these forms, you want them filled out right, as something as simple as a missing number or answer that background check won't be able to be run and the customer will have to correct that...

No one as yet has expressed any concern about their personal information on the forms. Only question about such information being hacked is the computer register system which is not internet connected, and running a system so old, most can't operate it... DOS...