Transfer of lower previously used on rifle.

[arakboss]

First off, my condolences to those who respect our gun rights, we are not headed in a good direction.

I understand that once a lower reciever (in a AR platform) has been used to build a rifle that it will always be a rifle receiver. If that is correct than how should the FFL handle the transfer of a stripped lower that was previously used in a rifle build and is brought in as a stripped lower for a transfer?

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[The Heretic]

Not quite.

Was it ever a pistol build?

Was it 'other' on the 4473 when it was bought?

Was it then only used to build a rifle or was it built as a pistol?

If it was first put together as a pistol, then it can go back and forth between pistol and rifle (see the Thompson Contender court case where the ATF lost in court).

But if it was first built as a rifle, or transferred as a rifle, then it will always be a rifle.

But, most stripped lowers today are bought and transferred as 'other', which means they can become either a rifle or a pistol. OTOH, if this is a stripped lower, with a serial # that was sold/transferred as a rifle (on a 4473 at some point), then the ATF will treat it as a rifle lower because that is what is on their records.

E.G., someone buys a complete AR rifle - that lower for that rifle, is a rifle lower, it can never be a pistol lower. Someone buys a stripped or 80% lower and assembles it first as a rifle, then it too is a rifle lower. If they sell the assembled AR as a rifle, then that lower is a rifle because it will be on the 4473 as a rifle.

If someone buys a complete AR pistol, then it will be a pistol lower and can go back and forth to rifle to pistol to rifle. However, I would assume that if you took it into an FFL in a rifle configuration to be transferred (OR or WA), then the FFL would put on the 4473 as a rifle and then the new owner would probably be stuck with a rifle and could not treat it as a pistol lower.

It gets complicated and there are grey areas, but that is my take on it. So once transferred as a rifle, then probably always a rifle. I.E., once the ATF has paperwork somewhere (including in an FFL's records) that something has been transferred as a rifle, it is a rifle. Transferred always as 'other' or 'pistol', then it can be configured either way by the owner, and as long as initially it is configured as a pistol, it can go back and forth.

This is why all of my builds will always be configured first as a pistol.

 

[pnw1994]

Not quite.

Was it ever a pistol build?

Was it 'other' on the 4473 when it was bought?

Was it then only used to build a rifle or was it built as a pistol?

If it was first put together as a pistol, then it can go back and forth between pistol and rifle (see the Thompson Contender court case where the ATF lost in court).

But if it was first built as a rifle, or transferred as a rifle, then it will always be a rifle.

But, most stripped lowers today are bought and transferred as 'other', which means they can become either a rifle or a pistol. OTOH, if this is a stripped lower, with a serial # that was sold/transferred as a rifle (on a 4473 at some point), then the ATF will treat it as a rifle lower because that is what is on their records.

E.G., someone buys a complete AR rifle - that lower for that rifle, is a rifle lower, it can never be a pistol lower. Someone buys a stripped or 80% lower and assembles it first as a rifle, then it too is a rifle lower. If they sell the assembled AR as a rifle, then that lower is a rifle because it will be on the 4473 as a rifle.

If someone buys a complete AR pistol, then it will be a pistol lower and can go back and forth to rifle to pistol to rifle. However, I would assume that if you took it into an FFL in a rifle configuration to be transferred (OR or WA), then the FFL would put on the 4473 as a rifle and then the new owner would probably be stuck with a rifle and could not treat it as a pistol lower.

It gets complicated and there are grey areas, but that is my take on it. So once transferred as a rifle, then probably always a rifle. I.E., once the ATF has paperwork somewhere (including in an FFL's records) that something has been transferred as a rifle, it is a rifle. Transferred always as 'other' or 'pistol', then it can be configured either way by the owner, and as long as initially it is configured as a pistol, it can go back and forth.

This is why all of my builds will always be configured first as a pistol.

what if it's never seen the light of day in it's rifle configuration

 

[Member 34319]

Simple answer, it should be transferred via a form 4473 as a receiver. If the FFL transfers it as a rifle, find another FFL.

It should be classified as other on the form and would require the buyer to be 21 years of age.

From there the buyer would have transferred a receiver and can assemble it however he/she pleases.

 

[arakboss]

Simple answer, it should be transferred via a form 4473 as a receiver. If the FFL transfers it as a rifle, find another FFL.

It should be classified as other on the form and would require the buyer to be 21 years of age.

From there the buyer would have transferred a receiver and can assemble it however he/she pleases.

So the once a rifle always a rifle doesn't apply to lower recievers?

 

[Member 34319]

So the once a rifle always a rifle doesn't apply to lower recievers?

If you buy a receiver, you have purchased a receiver you get to decide how it is assembled.

 

[Ops]

if it left the factory as a rifle its always rifle. even if they sell it as a receiver, though you may never know that. only the atf would if a trace was done.

 

[arakboss]

Not quite.

Was it ever a pistol build?

Was it 'other' on the 4473 when it was bought?

Was it then only used to build a rifle or was it built as a pistol?

If it was first put together as a pistol, then it can go back and forth between pistol and rifle (see the Thompson Contender court case where the ATF lost in court).

But if it was first built as a rifle, or transferred as a rifle, then it will always be a rifle.

But, most stripped lowers today are bought and transferred as 'other', which means they can become either a rifle or a pistol. OTOH, if this is a stripped lower, with a serial # that was sold/transferred as a rifle (on a 4473 at some point), then the ATF will treat it as a rifle lower because that is what is on their records.

E.G., someone buys a complete AR rifle - that lower for that rifle, is a rifle lower, it can never be a pistol lower. Someone buys a stripped or 80% lower and assembles it first as a rifle, then it too is a rifle lower. If they sell the assembled AR as a rifle, then that lower is a rifle because it will be on the 4473 as a rifle.

If someone buys a complete AR pistol, then it will be a pistol lower and can go back and forth to rifle to pistol to rifle. However, I would assume that if you took it into an FFL in a rifle configuration to be transferred (OR or WA), then the FFL would put on the 4473 as a rifle and then the new owner would probably be stuck with a rifle and could not treat it as a pistol lower.

It gets complicated and there are grey areas, but that is my take on it. So once transferred as a rifle, then probably always a rifle. I.E., once the ATF has paperwork somewhere (including in an FFL's records) that something has been transferred as a rifle, it is a rifle. Transferred always as 'other' or 'pistol', then it can be configured either way by the owner, and as long as initially it is configured as a pistol, it can go back and forth.

This is why all of my builds will always be configured first as a pistol.

Not quite.

Was it ever a pistol build?

Was it 'other' on the 4473 when it was bought?

Was it then only used to build a rifle or was it built as a pistol?

If it was first put together as a pistol, then it can go back and forth between pistol and rifle (see the Thompson Contender court case where the ATF lost in court).

But if it was first built as a rifle, or transferred as a rifle, then it will always be a rifle.

But, most stripped lowers today are bought and transferred as 'other', which means they can become either a rifle or a pistol. OTOH, if this is a stripped lower, with a serial # that was sold/transferred as a rifle (on a 4473 at some point), then the ATF will treat it as a rifle lower because that is what is on their records.

E.G., someone buys a complete AR rifle - that lower for that rifle, is a rifle lower, it can never be a pistol lower. Someone buys a stripped or 80% lower and assembles it first as a rifle, then it too is a rifle lower. If they sell the assembled AR as a rifle, then that lower is a rifle because it will be on the 4473 as a rifle.

If someone buys a complete AR pistol, then it will be a pistol lower and can go back and forth to rifle to pistol to rifle. However, I would assume that if you took it into an FFL in a rifle configuration to be transferred (OR or WA), then the FFL would put on the 4473 as a rifle and then the new owner would probably be stuck with a rifle and could not treat it as a pistol lower.

It gets complicated and there are grey areas, but that is my take on it. So once transferred as a rifle, then probably always a rifle. I.E., once the ATF has paperwork somewhere (including in an FFL's records) that something has been transferred as a rifle, it is a rifle. Transferred always as 'other' or 'pistol', then it can be configured either way by the owner, and as long as initially it is configured as a pistol, it can go back and forth.

This is why all of my builds will always be configured first as a pistol.

The situation would involve a lower reciever from a

if it left the factory as a rifle its always rifle. even if they sell it as a receiver, though you may never know that. only the atf would if a trace was done.

That was what i was wondering about. So if the lower came off my factory rifle and I sold it to John Doe but the FFL transferred it as an other can the new buyer build it in to whatever they want since it was transferred as an other?

 

[Member 34319]

If you are worked up about it.

Ask for a copy of the 4473 to file with your new to you receiver.

 

[Ops]

The situation would involve a lower reciever from a

That was what i was wondering about. So if the lower came off my factory rifle and I sold it to John Doe but the FFL transferred it as an other can the new buyer build it in to whatever they want since it was transferred as an other?

the second ffl has no idea, they transfer it as they see it. unless they originally sold the rifle and its in their system as a rifle. but in the atfs eyes its a rifle.

 

[The Heretic]

The situation would involve a lower reciever from a

That was what i was wondering about. So if the lower came off my factory rifle and I sold it to John Doe but the FFL transferred it as an other can the new buyer build it in to whatever they want since it was transferred as an other?

If it came off your factory rifle, then it is a rifle no matter how it is transferred later. IIRC the ATF has records from manufacturers (or at least can get them) so they know whether it was originally a rifle or not.

Sure, some FFL could unknowingly transfer it as 'other' when someone takes it in and tells them that it was never a rifle - the only way the FFL could know that wasn't true would be to do a traceback thru the ATF and that isn't going to happen as it would probably cost $ and certainly would take a long time - so they just take you at your word.

But down the road, if there is ever a question about the receiver in the minds of the gov., the ATF will do a traceback and find out it is was a rifle and someone can get in trouble then - probably the current owner.

Take for instance my Shockwave 'firearm'. There is nothing on it to differentiate it from a Mossberg shotgun. No model designation, nothing that says it was never a shotgun. The only way a gov entity can know that someone didn't cut down a shotgun would be to do a traceback to the factory records. Sure someone could cut down a shotgun and say it was sold to them as a 'firearm', but the truth would come out when the gov dug into the records.

Yes, the law is stupid, but it is also stupid to break the law when getting caught can put you or someone else into prison.

 

[Member 34319]

Machtech, once a rifle always a, oh wait.