Other State Stand your ground shooting Florida

[Laughingman]

Regardless of its legality I suspect the shooter will be bankrupted in a civil court case where the burden of proof is much lower, and likely have his wages garnished for eternity.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

The whole concept of innocent until proven guilty.... where does that fall into this situation?

I was only pointing out Florida's process for a Self Defense Immunity Hearing and giving the legal background to why the Sheriff did not arrest him.

 

[American123]

I was only pointing out Florida's process for a Self Defense Immunity Hearing and giving the legal background to why the Sheriff did not arrest him.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Argonaut]

Regardless of its legality I suspect the shooter will be bankrupted in a civil court case where the burden of proof is much lower, and likely have his wages garnished for eternity.

You can guarantee that will happen..........all the usual suspects are already saying what a "good guy" the deceased was........criminal exoneration isn't enough these days........there will be many lawyers trying to make a name by destroying the guy and the video will help them. I have been taking and teaching deadly force classes for nearly 50 years. I would like to see the enhanced video but the shooter looks wrong in what I can see. Pretty tough to argue being afraid for your life when the assailant appears to be finished and moving away. The shooter has permintly altered his own life by committing a questionable shooting, on video tape Whether he gets a criminal conviction or not.

 

[edzz]

Anyone here that believe this was the first time the deceased assaulted someone? Anyone believe it would have been the last? Hard to tell from the video what the end would have been if no shot were fired.

Regarding disabled plates, some of us have good days and some bad days, you can't always tell a persons disability. Sometimes I use the space some times I don't depends on how I feel. Sometimes I still use my plates even if I'm up for the walk when lots of handicap spaces are available and only a few normal spaces are available, provides a normal space for someone else.

 

[MrRob96]

What caliber and pistol was used? Old guy so I assume 1911 in 45ACP? I'm just asking because the assailant died so it seems like an effective round and slung into the vital zone effectively.

I actually had this same position present itself the other day. I was carrying and a couple was parked in the handicap spot in front of the restaurant I was attempting to get into. It was disrespectful but it wasn't my place to say anything, and that's the only way to ensure I don't learn how effective my P-01 with Speer GDHP +P ammo is.

In addition I can see why the old guy pulled the trigger, I likely would have as well if I decided to pull my handgun out in an altercation. The assailant was just as likely to be finding a weapon to use against him as he was as likely to be retreating. Verbal commands to stop any movement and call the police.

Look at what happened to the cop in MA that was hit by a rock and shot with his own gun. I wouldn't be ok with allowing the possibility of that outcome. I don't think that's a toxic attitude to take. The toxic attitude is confronting folks while armed and being quick to escalate.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Hey, 47 is not old. With a shot placement in the heart, he could have used a 22LR.

 

[Argonaut]

Hey, 47 is not old. With a shot placement in the heart, he could have used a 22LR.

From the video, he soaked up the shot pretty well........then went back into the store and likely bled out. I Doubt it was a 45, the terminal energy of a 45 usually produces more of a reaction than he exhibited. probably something like a 380. 22's kill more people than any other caliber (they make great assasin's guns) but the actual goal of a self defense shooter is to disable, not nessisary to kill. They won't say for a while.

 

[MrRob96]

From the video, he soaked up the shot pretty well........then went back into the store and likely bled out.

Ok I didn't see the video where the deceased walked back into the store after being hit. Could have been any caliber.

 

[OldBroad44]

But apparently the guy who comes out of the store and very violently shoved the shooter gets a free pass for initiating the physicality of the event.

Some people seem to forget that violence exists on a sliding spectrum and once you choose to get on the slide, you aren't always in control of how far you'll end up on the spectrum.

I don't think we were giving the pusher a free pass. He is clearly the one who chose to use physical violence. In my mind he bears primary responsibility for his own death. That wasn't just a little push, either. It was more like a martial arts move. If the recipient had landed differently, that push could have killed him. It was, in my view, potentially lethal force. However, the pusher is dead. Grievious was his fault, and grieviously has he paid for it. He's beyond society's ability to punish.

I think we are focusing on the shooter because he appears to have some degree of blame too. And how much is controversial and complicated. And the shooter is not beyond society's ability to punish.

 

[Argonaut]

I don't think we were giving the pusher a free pass. He is clearly the one who chose to use physical violence. In my mind he bears primary responsibility for his own death. That wasn't just a little push, either. It was more like a martial arts move. If the recipient had landed differently, that push could have killed him. It was, in my view, potentially lethal force. However, the pusher is dead. Grievious was his fault, and grieviously has he paid for it. He's beyond society's ability to punish.

I think we are focusing on the shooter because he appears to have some degree of blame too. And how much is controversial and complicated. And the shooter is not beyond society's ability to punish.

A justified shooting requires several elements. The perp was a bad guy.....no one is arguing that but the elements of justification seem lacking.......that is all anyone has said here. You can't shoot someone after the threat has dissipated no matter how amped up you are. It simply doesn't pass the rules for use of deadly force. Even if the victim was injured in the fall.......as soon as the guy stoped the attack and moved back, the deadly force justification is gone. That is what the video illustrates to me. I suppose if threats were still being verbally exchanged it could raise to a legitimate deadly force situation but a court will have to decide that. .........Oldbroad..........where have you been my entire life......you are wonderful.

 

[OldBroad44]

A justified shooting requires several elements. The perp was a bad guy.....no one is arguing that but the elements of justification seem lacking.......that is all anyone has said here. You can't shoot someone after the threat has dissipated no matter how amped up you are. It simply doesn't pass the rules for use of deadly force. Even if the shooter was injured in the fall.......as soon as the guy stoped the attack and moved back, the deadly force justification is gone. That is what the video illustrates to me. I suppose if threats were still being verbally exchanged it could raise to a legitimate deadly force situation but a court will have to decide that. .........Oldbroad..........where have you been my entire life......you are wonderful.

It's been really interesting to see all the interpretations of the video. I must have watched it 30 times, and what I thought I saw was what you said--an attacker who had backed away. An attack that was over. Pusher even had a very relaxed unaggressive posture. Then he was shot. But we got to see things from only one angle, and the one that was probably least useful. We didn't get to see what the shooter saw. And as others pointed out, sound might have made a big difference to our understanding.

I think part of why we might have appeared to give a free pass to the pusher was a statement early on that the pusher got what he deserved. And we know that society has granted us the right to use lethal force in defense of our lives and those of innocent others only. NOT because we think someone "deserves" to die.

I'm reminded of my favorite passage in the first book of Lord of the Rings. Gandalf has just told Frodo the history of the ring and the part that Gollum has played. Frodo says he does not understand why Gandalf and the elves let Gollum live. He deserves death, Frodo says.

Gandalf responds thus: "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 

[MrRob96]

Can I get Gandalf on the jury of my own trial in that case?

 

[MrRob96]

Or at least a gun-toting old broad?

 

[Black Dog]

r'Stand Your Ground' Law Could Spare Florida Man From Charges in Fatal Shooting Over Parking Space

Hope this sheds some light on this. There are a lot of references to this. Go and look and be aware of the facts about the LAW of stand your ground in Florida.

 

[OldBroad44]

r'Stand Your Ground' Law Could Spare Florida Man From Charges in Fatal Shooting Over Parking Space

Hope this sheds some light on this. There are a lot of references to this. Go and look and be aware of the facts about the LAW of stand your ground in Florida.

Right. But we have been mostly talking about how this incident would be viewed if it had happened in the NW, and how we NW CHL holders view it, and what we think is actually right, not what the Florida law says.

 

[RVTECH]

This controversy brings back memories of Bernie Goetz over 30 years ago....

 

[Black Dog]

Right. But we have been mostly talking about how this incident would be viewed if it had happened in the NW, and how we NW CHL holders view it, and what we think is actually right, not what the Florida law says.

I have been following this thread from the start. So I have to respectfully disagree with you.

 

[Argonaut]

A "stand your ground law" does not change the elements nessisary for the use of deadly force. It is still nessisary to justify your opinion that you or someone else's life was in danger. All it means is you are not required to run away from the situation. As I have said several times here.........this case is on the fast track to court, either civil or criminal or both. It will come to no good for the shooter in any event. I bet the grand jury will bring criminal charges even if the Sheriff declines to. The DA will be under tremendous pressure to try the case and they are generally cowards, preferring the un named Grand Jury do the dirty work. The civil trial will be brutal even if the shooter gets past the criminal side.

 

[Black Dog]

I don't think you read the whole article. Please look up Florida Stand Your Ground Law.