So when does "IT" hit the fan?

[Sam Kinard]

Giardia is a very rare thing and while it is a horrible sickness, I would rather take the one-in-a-million chance that boiling or using Giardia purification tablets didn't work than keep my kids in a population center where the chances of painful, early death go from incredibly small to nearly certain.

I don't know what's worse, the very rare Giardia or the potential for whatever river/stream to be choked up with dead bodies miles upstream that you are unaware of. In a true "disaster" situation, every base needs to be as covered as possible.

I used to speak highly of the Bison Pump company, but only until I found the Simple Pump. Either of these will attach to your well head and draw groundwater using a pipe that runs alongside your "normal" electric well pump. The reason we chose the Simple over the Bison is that the Simple Pump allows us to attach a solar system so that you may pump by hand or electrically. With the Bison, you purchase either the solar or hand pump version and they do not work together. At this point we only have the hand pump, but the ability to add the solar is a luxury that some day we may splurge on.

Still, that doesn't help us if we run into the woods. If not the woods and desolate mountains, where else would you take your kids in an emergency, especially one that has people killing each other over a can of kidney beans?

As always, YMMV. A fully stocked, nuclear powered submarine with the ability to desalinate sea water or a high enough position of power to have a place for your family at Cheyenne Mountain would be ideal. Since I don't have either of those, I will gladly take my chances against Giardia compared to hundreds of thousands of unprepared, starving people, but yes, we do all have to choose where to make our final stand.

 

[IronMonster]

I've had a case of beaver fever, good thing is it only lasts for about 48 hours, bad thing is it's 48 hours of insane projectile vomiting and delirium that has to be wose than actual death.

 

[Just Jim]

Guardia is just one of the killers with dirty water, if the kid gets it he will crap himself to dehydration and death. How many clean sources of water east of 97? Yep it would take a water filter but you got to make sure kids don't drink bad water. Heck even some adults have no idea what bad water does to them.

So Iron monster are you still impatient for the SHTF?

 

[erudne]

In all wars disease takes more PPL than battle. I have a UV light that will kill most protozoan life in a few minutes, plenty of chemicals and filters do the same, even charcoal can filter water. Boiling would be my last choice

 

[IronMonster]

Guardia is just one of the killers with dirty water, if the kid gets it he will crap himself to dehydration and death. How many clean sources of water east of 97? Yep it would take a water filter but you got to make sure kids don't drink bad water. Heck even some adults have no idea what bad water does to them.

So Iron monster are you still impatient for the SHTF?

I'm ready, that's all. Maybe I am impatient but it's only because it takes a lot of energy to constantly be ready. I need to learn to live condition yellow

 

[Sam Kinard]

It seems as though cities will burn and people will shoot and eat each other within 24 hours, but the woods are dangerous and your kids will die. I'm not sure there is an answer when we constantly argue against our own points of view.

East of 97 covers a lot of ground. The most important part of our property is that our well is fed by Crater Lake, providing what is not only wonderful water for us right now, but should be an inexhaustible resource as long as we can get to it, hence my description of the pump we invested in.

Now, in all fairness this is information given to us in Feb. '14 when we replaced our electric well pump that was installed in 1987. The "well guy" that came and did the work informed us of just how lucky we are to be tapping into this water source because of it's quality and that it will never run dry. He could be completely full of it, but he was replacing our pump that went out, the sale was already made and he had nothing to gain by making it up. I am not, however a ground water expert and cannot 100% verify his claim. Anyway, Crater Lake feeds a surprising amount of square miles east and west of 97. Were we required to run into the mountains from something, there are many springs that are filtered by the same volcanic rock that filters the water to our home. Of course, the further east you go the lower the quality of water gets, with exceptions in The Steens and other places. There is a reason that this corner of our state is so wide open and in some places uninhabitable. There are other places that have been sustaining human life for longer than we've been keeping track.

 

[Sam Kinard]

Honestly, if I could have one thing that I can never have, it would be a 24 hour delay button on whatever S Hits The F.

With all the variables, we can argue about it until we die or are suddenly too busy staying alive to argue about stuff on the internet. I feel satisfied with the choices I have made and I only wish that everyone else is satisfied with their own. That's all there is to it for me. The rest is just comparing notes to see if I can glean anything from the experience of others.

 

[Just Jim]

Honestly, if I could have one thing that I can never have, it would be a 24 hour delay button on whatever S Hits The F.

With all the variables, we can argue about it until we die or are suddenly too busy staying alive to argue about stuff on the internet. I feel satisfied with the choices I have made and I only wish that everyone else is satisfied with their own. That's all there is to it for me. The rest is just comparing notes to see if I can glean anything from the experience of others.

Not sure my way of thinking would be much help.

 

[CoastRange57]

Big cities will be hardest hit, then anything close to the main roads. Once the vehicles stop people will either band together in groups or kill to get each others stuff to keep moving. People off the main drag have a good chance that most of the bad guys would die off before they start looking away from the main roads.

Urban stores will be immediate targets. When the car gas tanks run out, the gas stations will be targets, and amateurs will attempt to pump gas out of the tanks not knowing how to do it and some will be completely blown up in the blevy that follows. Thieves will then target farm storage of fuel and be promptly be shot by the farmers. Urban theft will take priority since those will be soft targets and easier to gain tactical advantage, as opposed to trying to steal from rural locations that have long open access points and wide open fields of fire.

Bridges and intersections of highways will become choke points controlled by whomever can fight off the next incursion of other well armed individuals. Thugs will extract tolls from people and these will become body piles. Those planning to travel long distances to bug out locations will need to be well armed with a lot of ammunition, and carrying enough fuel to make the trip, the ability to deviate from main routes to avoid battles . I do not intend to travel, but over the last several years, I have collected maps of several adjoining counties, and I have the advantage of having traveled every road I think in Oregon, SW WA, and N CA.

 

[Sam Kinard]

Not sure my way of thinking would be much help.

Sometimes constantly contradicting yourself works, other times it kind of makes for talking in circles when you say the cities burn, but the woods are too dangerous.

BTW, it's Giardia. Guardia is a Spanish policeman. That's not a big deal, but when telling us that some have no clue of what it is, you may want to look into what you're talking about. Unless you were in fact commenting upon my lack of understanding Spanish police officers.

The beautiful thing about anonymous internet forums is that we all say things to each other that we would be embarrassed to say to each other's faces. That's obviously also the bad thing.

 

[Just Jim]

Sometimes constantly contradicting yourself works, other times it kind of makes for talking in circles when you say the cities burn, but the woods are too dangerous.

BTW, it's Giardia. Guardia is a Spanish policeman. That's not a big deal, but when telling us that some have no clue of what it is, you may want to look into what you're talking about. Unless you were in fact commenting upon my lack of understanding Spanish police officers.

The beautiful thing about anonymous internet forums is that we all say things to each other that we would be embarrassed to say to each other's faces. That's obviously also the bad thing.

The woods burn too and without a group you won't last long. People will leave the cities in a hurry out of fear, in the right spot with enough gear a small group will out last the bad guys. Bad guys will move to the least point of resistance in the beginning, they won't want a stand up fight. They will look for easy prey.

Groups that leave the city will look for a place they can take then defend. It's going to take people in groups to survive and supplies to keep alive, until it comes time to hunt the bad guys.

 

[Sam Kinard]

Urban stores will be immediate targets. When the car gas tanks run out, the gas stations will be targets, and amateurs will attempt to pump gas out of the tanks not knowing how to do it and some will be completely blown up in the blevy that follows. Thieves will then target farm storage of fuel and be promptly be shot by the farmers. Urban theft will take priority since those will be soft targets and easier to gain tactical advantage, as opposed to trying to steal from rural locations that have long open access points and wide open fields of fire.

Bridges and intersections of highways will become choke points controlled by whomever can fight off the next incursion of other well armed individuals. Thugs will extract tolls from people and these will become body piles. Those planning to travel long distances to bug out locations will need to be well armed with a lot of ammunition, and carrying enough fuel to make the trip, the ability to deviate from main routes to avoid battles . I do not intend to travel, but over the last several years, I have collected maps of several adjoining counties, and I have the advantage of having traveled every road I think in Oregon, SW WA, and N CA.

As horrible as what you describe is, it's absolutely true and that is one part of already being at you bug-out location.

There will probably be a lot of bridges around here that will be lying in their respected rivers shortly after insanity hits. Some may say that certain folks already have stuff ready to just that, but I'm sure it's just idle talk.

What concerns me about the scenario you describe is not 72 hours after the collapse, but 2 years after when all the "easy" and concentrated targets are gone and certain tiny mountain communities are lulled into a sense of security by the fact that gunshots haven't been heard in months. Assuming we're still in the Stone Age, will the group we meet with be the baddest of the bad, that killed all the rest, or will they be malnourished, feral animals?

We don't plan on travelling either and at a certain point you have to defend what you have or die trying. No one can cover every base and there is always something that gets you when discussing the end of the world. I know that in the situation we are describing it will be a miracle for those not already here to get here. You have to either get out ahead, immediately after the first sign of trouble or get incredibly lucky as you creep through hundreds of miles of forest that is either buried in snow or has the burning sun pounding on it, not to mention the murderers and looters. The romance of Hollywood will be hard to find and it will look a lot more like The Road than Mad Max in my opinion.

 

[Sam Kinard]

The woods burn too and without a group you won't last long. People will leave the cities in a hurry out of fear, in the right spot with enough gear a small group will out last the bad guys. Bad guys will move to the least point of resistance in the beginning, they won't want a stand up fight. They will look for easy prey.

Groups that leave the city will look for a place they can take then defend. It's going to take people in groups to survive and supplies to keep alive, until it comes time to hunt the bad guys.

You're describing what I have been stating all along. You seem to forget that we have a group and those travelling from other places will only bolster it if they make it.

Groups that leave the city will generally be dead long before they are anywhere near us. We've got 300 miles to Portland, 350 to Sacramento, about 400 to SF and another 300 to Reno. We picked this place just for that and have made additional contacts with like-minded folks here on top of family. In our situation, we figure 16 adults will cover constant security patrols and continued work at staying fed. If we only have 12, I'll still take my chances over starting in a city, trying to survive there and then trying to get out.

I'm not sure what your goal is, but your constant contradictions prove that you want only to argue whatever I say and have no interest in this topic. What is it about 12-20 people that have trained in one location and are a family unit, on a mountainside property offering natural security and miles of viewpoints that will give us a minimum of 30 minutes before any "bad guys" even know we are there that sounds like instant death for us?

You keep saying "without a group" and you are correct. I keep describing my group and somehow to you I am describing my life alone as a hermit. I will always throw purposely incorrect info into any description of our setup. You can bet that we are in very rural Klamath or Lake County. You can bet that we produce our own food and can survive her after closing the gates like Willy Wonka. You can absolutely take to the bank the fact that we didn't come down here and do all this just to give it to the first band of rapists and killers that comes along.

 

[Sam Kinard]

I think I have added all I can and am now helping to distract from the point by taking easy bait.

Good luck to you all and I hope you know and do what is right for you. You may have it figured out in a high-rise condo or on a small farm in the mountains. I hope that the experience of others helps you see a side or angle that you hadn't considered yourself. Personally, I will be buying back some of the silver I sold a couple years ago, even if to only act as a currency between the few homesteads out here.

You can try to help people out or constantly try to look for chinks in the armor of others. I've done both and only one has any sort of reward. Good luck.

 

[Just Jim]

Guys out on the ranch where it snows enough to kill are going to have some interesting problems. Fuel runs out its going to take wood to heat and a good portion of the summer to gather wood and cut it by hand. Plus growing season will be limited and one freeze (there won't be any forecast) and the crops destroyed. A greenhouse will be the only way to protect your veggies.

You would need a Dozier to build defense berms and lots of diesel to run it. How would you protect your beef? Just pointing out problems of living in the high country, there are more but just giving you something you probably already thought about.

 

[Just Jim]

People are funny, if they can't talk on the net because they become uncomfortable how will they get along with 16 people in close quarters? How are they all going to adjust to really hard work just to stay alive? Why were there so few homes in the high country?

 

[Sam Kinard]

Guys out on the ranch where it snows enough to kill are going to have some interesting problems. Fuel runs out its going to take wood to heat and a good portion of the summer to gather wood and cut it by hand. Plus growing season will be limited and one freeze (there won't be any forecast) and the crops destroyed. A greenhouse will be the only way to protect your veggies.

You would need a Dozier to build defense berms and lots of diesel to run it. How would you protect your beef? Just pointing out problems of living in the high country, there are more but just giving you something you probably already thought about.

Sheesh. I thought I was done.

We have wood stoves and are surrounded by National Forest. There goes the wood problem. We are at 4,800 feet and are very familiar with what it takes to grow here, yet somehow our apples, berries, pears, plums still produce every year. Not only do we have a greenhouse, but the greenhouse has a "backyard" that is completely covered in chicken wire that is buried and cemented into the ground and the roof is covered with the same chicken wire to keep the many, many birds out. We then are able to keep plants alive in the winter and even harvest winter crops, though very few. We've already done the dozer work(it was a rental) and have railroad ties and cement forms from the railyard in Chiloquin. We don't raise beef. We have friends in a valley with the right property for that and will trade for it with the chickens, eggs, goats, milk, cheese and pork that we supply. Our property could handle one or two head of cattle and that would be silly with the yield we can get from the other animals. We will also need the cows of others if we want butter.

There aren't problems in the high country when you live here and constantly work it. We didn't get here last week. We have a real thing here to defend and I'm sorry if it makes others look at what they have or haven't done. We've got it covered and if you need to cure the Giardia you got on your way down here, we have a bonafide nurse that can help with that.

Of course, maybe it's all just fantasy and I have never left St. John's and all that I typed is just what I read in Jerry Ahern & JW, Rawles books.

 

[Sam Kinard]

People are funny, if they can't talk on the net because they become uncomfortable how will they get along with 16 people in close quarters? How are they all going to adjust to really hard work just to stay alive? Why were there so few homes in the high country?

Because it takes those with a desire for freedom and individuality to do the hard work required out here. No one worked harder, yet no one was as free as a Free Trapper. He could die every single day and whether you like it or not, that is freedom. I will live or die by my own choices, not the choice of the guys kicking my front door in. Period. Again, you seem to be made uncomfortable by those that mention what they have done. Could it be telling of what others HAVEN'T done?

I will be able to get along with 16 people in three separate homes on my property quite easily, as there won't be one or two of them constantly whining about "doing it wrong" after they left their iPhones behind to run to my place. Your attempts to validate your childish behavior is at least amusing.

So, what are your plans? To hear you describe it all, a loaded revolver to the temple seems to be the only answer.

And here I am being baited again. And falling for it.

 

[Just Jim]

Ya I have lived on the coast and in the valley and in Eastern Oregon so have a pretty good idea what it takes to live in each area. I tend to not put all my eggs in one basket and will watch the flow of events to see what direction I will take.

 

[IronMonster]

I would say you guys have a pretty scary view of how bad this might be. My personal expectations of bad are nothing like yours. I recognize the possibility of a true TEOTWAWKI event, however what I expect is something more like a mega great depression. Granted a mega great depression will have a far greater impact today simply because so few people are used to actually having to work to survive (they sit at a desk or stand at a counter and think they "work", I got news for you-that's not work) Being able to raise a vegetable garden, process a chicken, chop your own wood and fix your own home- Things that pretty much everyone could do during the last great depression are pretty much unheard of today. Instead of 95% of people being able to take care of themselves its probably more like 5% today. Granted some will learn, but most wont. Most will expect poppa government to take care of them and could very well die waiting to be saved. I expect some lawlessness, however I dont expect the piles of bodies at bridges and roaming death squads. There will be crime, no doubt but I personally think that most people are good natured and willing to help for the greater good. If one of those bridge choke points develop I think the surrounding folks will put an end to that through superior forces and firepower. That is one thing that I am not too worried about. I think an armed society is a safe society and I think that if things get real bad just about everyone will have a sidearm at a minimum. There would be exceptions for sure, but I think food and health will be far bigger concerns than bad guys.


So, Yeah I am ready, but what I am ready for is a currency crisis or possibly a sizable natural disaster (meaning a temporary scenario even if its a year or two)
I am not nor will I ever be ready for a end of the world event nor do I wish to hasten its arrival. Most of what I have done would serve me well in one, but that is a everybody loses situation and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

When I say I am ready for "it" to happen, its an event that will pass, that will be traumatic and difficult but is temporary. It will be a call to action, not a death sentence.