Poll: SHTF Carbine: 5.56㎜ versus .30 Carbine

[USMC-03]

Both are light fast and handy, with the slight edge to the M1, but that depends on the AR!

There is a lot of great information out there now from the old MAC-V-SOG SF guys - interviews, books, podcasts - weapons and tactics are common topics.

The XM-177 (with 20 round magazines) in the dense boondocks of Laos and Cambodia was the norm; always praised by Green Berets and indigenous troops for its handling and effectiveness - although they lament the lack of 30 round mags.

 

[wjv]

I think either would do.
For those who are arguing ammo availability, I have 2 M1 Carbines (GI) and 3,600 rounds of ammo.


In 5.56 I have 3 choices (2 AR patterned) and a Mini14 and 6,000 rounds of ammo.
The older AR has a National Match barrel which is supposedly was spec'd to be good out to 800 yards with the right ammo and the right shooter (per the Marine Corp). I posses neither the right ammo or the right skills to do that! The Aero Precision now has a Romeo5 red dot on it.




Which gun to grab would be dependent on what's happening and where you live.
All out MadMax vs Post disaster (Earthquake, Blackout) protection vs civil unrest)

The .30 does have some limits


In some urban areas you may never have to shoot more than 200 yards.
While not as common today, there were jurisdictions where owning a M1 Carb was legal while AR patterned rifles were banned. Now days more laws ban by "features" instead of by name.

There are some situations where I'd even be quite comfortable with one of my lever guns backed up by a semi-auto pistol.

All that said, it would be hard to go wrong with almost any 556 as you would not have to worry about its limitations in most situations.

 

[Savage Jav]

 

[Savage Jav]

I think this video illustrates it pretty well though they use an AK. Even in an 9in barrel I think 556 is fine inside of 200m (still waiting for CZ to make spare barrels for the Bren 2)

 

[3MTA3]

I go with 5.56, but I wouldn't feel cheated with an M1 so long as I had ammo.

• From the ammo perspective the 5l56 is more readily available and has a longer range, while 30 Cal Carbine has an edge at closer distances. During SHTF it would be more likely to locate additional 5.56 though certainly no cakewalk.
• 5.56/223 comes in many flavors beyond the basic military ball. While a hand loader can load their own custom ammo, 5.56 comes in barrier blind defensive versions.
• I was surprised that the weight of the cartridges is close enough that it's insignificant. About 9 30 cal rounds weighs the same as 10 5.56 rounds. I expected 30 cal to be much heavier. Storage volume is also about the same.
• The AR-15 platform is IMO more significant than the performance differences between the two for SHTF purposes. The AR platform does not require a gunsmith or machine tools to perform major service or cannibalization to keep rifles going. Changing the bolt in an M1 for example requires a gunsmith to headspace the replacement part. A bolt replacement for an AR can be done in the field in a few moments. The AR platform is also easily configured for a specific tasks and doesn't require adapters to mount optics, etc..

IMO ammo availability and the ease of platform serviceability give the edge to 5.56.

 

[DeanMk]

Have we pondered bullet mass between these two calibers?
A big .224 bullet is 75 gr.
A little .308 bullet is 110 gr.
Buffalo Bore offers a loading for the .30 Carbine that uses a 125 gr. bullet.

...thoughts?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Have we pondered bullet mass between these two calibers?
A big .224 bullet is 75 gr.
A little .308 bullet is 110 gr.
Buffalo Bore offers a loading for the .30 Carbine that uses a 125 gr. bullet.

...thoughts?

All the more reason to have a secondary AR in something like a 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 Rem SPC2, .300BLK, or along those lines

6.5 Grendel, I have both 100gr and 123gr bullets. My primary 5.56, I have 55gr and 62gr for now. May get 77gr soft points eventually but the 1:8 twist seems to be good with the 62gr ammo.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Have we pondered bullet mass between these two calibers?
A big .224 bullet is 75 gr.
A little .308 bullet is 110 gr.
Buffalo Bore offers a loading for the .30 Carbine that uses a 125 gr. bullet.

...thoughts?

Energy, penetration, expansion ( perhaps) and accuracy at range! For this, the AR has every advantage it would seem, but does it really?
Take this for what it is, using a 77gr. Pill from a 1/8 twist SBR 11.5 inch barrel sees a M.V. of 2250ish and a drop of 38 inches @200 meters! Now, compare that with a standard M-1 Carbine with standard ammo! Not factoring in all the other parameters how do these compare?
Not such an advantage is it? Accuracy is still in the AR's camp, but just barely. Penetration is still pretty dang good, but then so is the bigger heavier .30 Carbine! Ultimately I don't think there is all that much difference, the M-1 being a little lighter weight and very slick, while the AR can have range and accuracy benefits at the expense of bullet weight and penetration! Tough choices, that's why I have both!

 

[billdeserthills]

I'm just gonna grab my Desert Eagle & my 5.7

 

[3MTA3]

Have we pondered bullet mass between these two calibers?
A big .224 bullet is 75 gr.
A little .308 bullet is 110 gr.
Buffalo Bore offers a loading for the .30 Carbine that uses a 125 gr. bullet.

...thoughts?

Current lack of modern bullets in factory loads is one of the few disadvantages of the cartridge, Better bullets will greatly improve it's effectiveness. Unfortunately the cartridge design is so specialized that it's hard to use a bullet not specifically designed for it. In fact, it's not even listed in my Nosler reloading manual because they don't have anything suitable, IIRC my ancient early 60's Speer does but required a specific bullet made for it.

 

[Phred]

The Sierra Pro-Hunter does a better job of helping the M1 become an effective bullet for the carbine. I load these with 14.8 gr. of W296/H110.
They claim hese rifle bullets were designed specifically for proper feeding in the 30 M1 Carbine. The 110 grain Roundnose #2100 is a soft point expanding bullet that expands reliably at carbine velocities.

 

[Spaz]

Yeahhh...30 Carbine lacks any and all armor penetration capacity, not to mention the lack of available ammo (You can't carry thousands of rounds on you and realistically be effective) and available parts, this should easily be a winner for 5.56

 

[DeanMk]

Current lack of modern bullets in factory loads is one of the few disadvantages of the cartridge, Better bullets will greatly improve it's effectiveness. Unfortunately the cartridge design is so specialized that it's hard to use a bullet not specifically designed for it. In fact, it's not even listed in my Nosler reloading manual because they don't have anything suitable, IIRC my ancient early 60's Speer does but required a specific bullet made for it.

View attachment 1025136

Actually, I noticed 125 gr. Nosler Accubond in .308 is effective down to 1800 ft./sec., which falls into the Carbine's range.
It, and the BB load, are what got me thinking about that weight bullet in the Carbine to begin with.
FWIW, I've never seen any reloading info on .30 Carbine for anything other than the 110 gr. bullet, so some careful experimentation would be the order of the day.

 

[3MTA3]

Actually, I noticed 125 gr. Nosler Accubond in .308 is effective down to 1800 ft./sec., which falls into the Carbine's range.
It, and the BB load, are what got me thinking about that weight bullet in the Carbine to begin with.
FWIW, I've never seen any reloading info on .30 Carbine for anything other than the 110 gr. bullet, so some careful experimentation would be the order of the day.

I'd be interested to see if it's compatible with the cartridge. I think the ogive might be too long to stay within the OAL. The 140 gr Custom Competition looks shorter, but might still be too long.

 

[DeanMk]

I'd be interested to see if it's compatible with the cartridge. I think the ogive might be too long to stay within the OAL. The 140 gr Custom Competition looks shorter, but might still be too long.
View attachment 1025773

Well, Buffalo Bore does offer a .30 carbine with 125 gr. bullet, so I figured it should work, but not all bullets are made the same.
Good point.

 

[3MTA3]

Well, Buffalo Bore does offer a .30 carbine with 125 gr. bullet, so I figured it should work, but not all bullets are made the same.
Good point.

I think if you could find a non sptizer style like something made for a 30-30 in a lighter weight that looked feedable you might have something. I'm sure it's out there somewhere. IMO any hunting bullet would outperform ball for self defense and obviously the hunting aspect of survival during SHTF.

EDIT Sierra has a few in their Pro Hunter line that mught work including one that appears to be designed specifically for this cartridge: https://www.sierrabullets.com/product-tag/prohunter/?filter_diameter=0-308&query_type_diameter=or

 

[DeanMk]

I was hoping for a spitzer, though, due to the superior aerodynamic qualities.
Moving back to the 110gr. bullet, would it be so bad if one replaced the fmj bullet with this one?

.30 Cal 110 Gr. HP Varminter - Sierra Bullets

There is only one 30 caliber Varminter rifle bullet in Sierra's line. This 110 grain #2110 Hollow Point also is the largest caliber Varminter bullet in Sierra's line. It will withstand exceptionally high velocities and can be loaded in all 30 caliber cartridges, including magnums. It is...

www.sierrabullets.com

The BC on that one is .188, compared to .154 for the one you mentioned, 3MTA3.

Now, going back to 125gr. bullet, it would be really cool if this one could work...

.30 Cal 125 Gr. SPT Pro-Hunter - Sierra Bullets

The 125 grain #2120 has a medium-weight tapered jacket. It is very destructive at high velocity and is an excellent long-range varmint bullet. When loaded to medium velocity, it is an excellent low-recoil hunting bullet suited to medium game. The #2120 bullet is especially well suited to Hunter...

www.sierrabullets.com

...and they may be addressing the .30 Carbine, with this passage from their descriptive of that bullet; "Due to their flat base design, Pro-Hunter bullets are an excellent choice for a cartridge with limited powder capacity and a short neck, because these bullets intrude into the powder space less than a boat tail."

The BC on the 125 gr. Pro Hunter seems exceedingly superior to the 110gr. version, at .277.

 

[3MTA3]

I don't think I would worry too much about BC as I don't see this cartridge being effect beyond a few hundred yards

When you look at the bullet ogive portion compare it to a factory round. It's probably as long as will work in both magazine and chamber

 

[Phantom Man]

How big is the pile of sh*t and the fan?
M1 Carbine makes a fabulous home defense option. Many many Japanese were killed by them. It was the favorite souvenir choice by German soldiers.
War now. Advanced system 5.56

 

[Cavedweller]

M1 Carbine makes a fabulous home defense option. Many many Japanese were killed by them. It was the favorite souvenir choice by German soldiers.