Probably gonna devolve into a caliber pissing match lol

[slimmer13]

Carhart jacket stops 4 of 9 Speer gold dot +p.

"Four of the shots that cops fired at a madman waving a knife in Midtown failed to penetrate his jacket — which was not bulletproof — and the NYPD will now check the weapons for malfunction, law enforcement sources told The Post." The Post reports that the non-bullet-resistant jacket in question was a Carhartt. Regular reader will instantly wonder: how many bullets did the notoriously inaccurate NYPD fire at one Garry Conrad, how many hit him and how many failed to penetrate his outwear? Glad you asked . . .

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...tops-nypd-speer-gold-dot-p-9mm-hollow-points/

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[CamoDeafie]

I've noticed that a good number of cheap 9mm ammo seems to be under-loaded for their bullet weights...... whereas my reman/reloads that I got from a gun show many years ago, seems to be doing slightly better... haven't had the chance to see what the others are like.... but I have also read of many people stating that their supposedly +p ammo still not being as "hot" or bigger flash/kick as surplus NATO 9mm ammo.. I suppose most ammo companies purposely down load their ammo expecting them to be used mainly in short barrels, as opposed to target barrels or carbine barrels.

EDIT: by that, I mean tailoring the load recipe to use less powder needed to exit out of say, 3-4" of barrel, as opposed to 5-6" of barrel or even 6"-16" barrels.

Since NATO 9mm seems to be for fullsize 5" barrels and also for Personal Defense Weapons (PDWs) as well as SMGs which all have longer barrels for the most part.... perhaps the difference is just in how much powder is loaded to ensure that the NATO 9mm can perform optimally from say, a MP5, instead of optimally from a 3-4" subcompact handgun.

 

[Brutus57]

Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber bullet.

Brutus out

 

[The Heretic]

The comments are interesting.

I intend to make some of my outdoors work pants and bib overalls into "tin cloth" with wax and paraffin and linseed oil or something like that. It would be interesting to take some of the Carhartt/et. al. cloth (mostly just heavy canvas) and shoot it hanging free vs. hanging taut vs. against a solid backing (gel among other things) and see what the differences are with .357 mag, 9mm and .45 ACP.

Sounds like a project for "box of truth"

 

[clearconscience]

Could the hollow point actually have preventedbetter penetration?

Why were the police carrying 9mm?
I thought most switched to a .40 or .45?

 

[Ura-Ki]

HA! I have some experience with that, Tin cloth, especially heavy tin cloth actually dosn't hold up as well as untreated of the same, at least with stopping high energy impacts! Abrasion resistance is a lot better and water proofing as well! My Carhart double front pants are pretty tough, but I wouldn't think they could stop much, the linesmens jackets are probably a lot better at that! I have heard stories of .30 carbine being stopped by thick wool jackets, so I bet there is some truth to all this hype with Carhart brand stuff!

 

[The Heretic]

My pants are Wrangler Riggs riptsop pants which I really like. Not totally thornproof but much better than standard jeans for working in brush. With some tin cloth treatment they may be "bullet proof" (figuratively, not literally).

 

[Fast Eddie]

Hornady critical duty is made for going through glass and clothing layers, from what I've seen in testing it would have been a better choice for them. I'm surprised NYPD are using 9mm defense ammo. I'm surprised they are using 9mm. I own and carry a couple of 9mm's I like Hornady for the fact that they fill the void in the HP for this very reason.

I think Speer does a better job marketing their lawman and gold dot to LE. FWIW I've always thought of them as a premium ammunition and am not about to dispose of any of my 9mm, .38 or .357 Speer ammo based on this article. I am going to buy a Carrhart Jacket

 

[Ura-Ki]

You can get Tin Cloth treatment at Coastal Farm and Ranch and other outlets. You can also order the stuff from Filson directly or many retailers! Both work really well. Another source is Dry-Z-Bone out of Australia, its not bad price wise, and works the best/longest. Plus, it smells like the Old West! I have used it the longest and a once yearly treatment is all that is required! Tip; get the cloth nice and hot, and the treatment to a liquid state and apply with a wool scrap! This works out nice and gives a deep treatment! For those crafty enough, Rendered Bear fat mixed with Bees wax and a touch of Olive oil will also work very well, and makes a good boot dressing as well!

 

[Member 34319]

The report was not accurate. Probably lies to hide the fact that the bullets were not recovered. IE the cops missed, shocker....

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Not trying to be too smartass.... But sometimes even the best bullets (whatever those are...) do weird things at times.
Andy

 

[Andy54Hawken]

As for devolving into a caliber pissing match ... In my experiences when the "target" can shoot back , no matter what I had in my hands , I wanted a bigger caliber. LOL!
Andy

 

[ozmosis]

Well when I lived in Alaska the State patrol had to switch from #4 buckshot to 00 buckshot due to heavy winter clothing preventing wounding.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Well when I lived in Alaska the State patrol had to switch from #4 buckshot to 00 buckshot due to heavy winter clothing preventing wounding.

Mic drop....

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i know for a fact that carhartt jackets wont stop a 5.56. i shot a hole thru mine while using it as a rest once muzzle blast flipped a piece of it infront of my barrel while i was doing a mag dump.

 

[Fast Eddie]

i know for a fact that carhartt jackets wont stop a 5.56. i shot a hole thru mine while using it as a rest once muzzle blast flipped a piece of it infront of my barrel while i was doing a mag dump.

It might if NYPD was shooting it

 

[mjbskwim]

This ammo was the same ammo from a few years back were the perp had taken 20 some rounds and they finally killed him with a 556.
So either the ammo isn't very consistent or it is very suspect to not penetrate with angle?
Is the police ammo not as hot as the stuff we buy in the stores?

 

[CamoDeafie]

This ammo was the same ammo from a few years back were the perp had taken 20 some rounds and they finally killed him with a 556.
So either the ammo isn't very consistent or it is very suspect to not penetrate with angle?
Is the police ammo not as hot as the stuff we buy in the stores?

If the NYPD budget office is anything like a corporate budget committee....it is likely that the accountants asked for a set number of ammo, at a set price, and Speer got the contract by offering something that met the minimum (not optimal) performance requirements, at the price point being offered...it is possible that they are not as hot as the stuff we buy in stores, because the stuff on the market can be sold at a certain price point that the contract stuff might not be at....

otherwise, I do not know.

I however remember reading that a Colt M4 contract by unit ended up being about $500-700 per carbine, but the contract included parts and labor and so on spread over time...while the open market Colt semi autos start at already much higher prices for us peons to purchase.....

There is also that little issue of the differences between cheap 9mm ammo and NATO 9mm ammo...even though I don't recall seeing a NATO JHP... (I know there are some being issued for certain units but for the most part its FMJ)

 

[U8395279]

Not trying to be too smartass.... But sometimes even the best bullets (whatever those are...) do weird things at times.
Andy

Yes, freakish things can happen. A bullet that has ricocheted off something, for example, can lose a lot of its energy, and also be so damaged that it will not penetrate as well.

Something like that could explain one shot doing this. But 4 shots? That seems improbable to me.

I highly suspect the accuracy of this report myself. I think it is simply poor reporting by the New York Post, and nothing more. Or maybe they wanted to sensationalize the story. The press are known for taking liberties with facts.

Other news media reports made no such report at all like this, so that is why I question this Post account. News photos of the dead man's body covered up after the shooting show two big rivers of blood flowing out. Seems to me that this ammo did its job very well. This man suffered major blood loss.

Just take a look below. The fellow looks plenty dead to me. And the multiple rivers would seem to indicate to me that he was hit multiple times. I think that he may have been hit in both the head and in the chest, based on this photo.



.
The New York Post is considered to be more of a tabloid newspaper. I just don't think one can trust such publications as much. For they crave sensational headlines.

Just take a look:


.

Here is a photo of the knife that the man was wielding, when officers shot him. The man had past convictions for assault and knife possession.
.

 

[U8395279]

Here is another view of the dead body. That sure is a lot of blood. Could a single 9mm cause that much bleeding?