Planning for societal collapse. Guns or gold?

[TAT2D]

That is flawed thinking. You will not need gold in smaller amounts because in such a situation those values will be meaningless.

I was really trying to address the gold is for saving, silver is for spending because gold conveys too large of value to be convenient for spending train.

You talk only about gold here, but I assume you think silver is also not good to acquire, since it can't be eaten either. I'm certainly not sure, but I think silver (and gold) will have utility, post-apocalypse, because a 'medium of exchange' is just too good of an idea to go away completely. Sure its value will fluctuate relative to other goods but I don't think it'll go to zero or even near-zero. The medium of exchange, assuming I can find someone to trade to or from precious metal lets me sell my excess tomatoes today while they're fresh, without having to anticipate whether I'll need a box of nails or a chicken more, next week. It saves me having to find the one guy in the area that wants some (nice...delicious...juicy) tomatoes as much as he wants to get rid of his extra chicken.

MrB

 

[TAT2D]

I don't know what you mean by "chipped" so I'll skip over that.

Think 'Terminator' and pulling a dime jawbreaker out of your nose.

From a recent NASA TechBrief's e-letter, the question of the week:

"This week's question concerns a recent poll that was taken prior to the opening of the CeBIT Trade show that was held in Germany last week. The poll, conducted by the German IT industry lobby group BITKOM, asked participants whether or not they would have a microchip implanted in their body if they derived concrete benefits from it (concrete benefits were defined as assisting medical/fire personnel to rescue you more quickly, making shopping go more smoothly, etc.). One in four said yes. What do you think? Would you have a microchip implanted under your skin if concrete benefits were derived from it? Submit your answer and post your comments at..."

MrB

 

[Partsproduction]

<broken link removed>

 

[Humpyslayer]

In a society collapse, gold won't be of much value at first, I'd think. Weapons, tools, food, medical supplies, heat sources, etc., would seem to be better barter commodity. My old bug out bag use to have some "unconventional items" in it for survival. I use to keep some vicodine I never use up for a prescription, a pint of cheap whiskey, a package of top for rolling cigarettes, and a couple rubbers. Not that they would do much good to "survive", but in a situation as bleak and stressful as a society collapse or such, I'm really gonna want to take my mind off things and getting a buzz, having a cigarette (even though I don't smoke anymore), and getting laid, would all be great distractions from having to worry about food, clean water, where I'm going to keep dry and warm, etc.

 

[safooma]

<broken link removed>

This was not in the version of the Bill that passed, BTW.

 

[Partsproduction]

Thanks safooma. I don't like to pass on falsehoods.

 

[SSG]

Societal Collapse? = You will all turn to the govt for salvation, in the process, give up your rights, your money, your freedoms for a fleeting hope of comfort and security.

 

[OPAWY]

Already mentioned, survival items that are universally needed may be better barter stuff, especially when you don't have alot of money to run out and buy gold or silver. But I keep a small amt of silver handy, just in case. Putting all your eggs in one basket would not be wise. As far as ammo goes, I would be wary of using it for bartering because it may eventually be used against me. Ultimately, the best survival tool is your mind. Keep it it fresh. Use the booze to barter. It wouldn't hurt to have a couple bicycles handy with one of those little baby pullers to haul small amts of stuff short distances.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I was really trying to address the gold is for saving, silver is for spending because gold conveys too large of value to be convenient for spending train.

You talk only about gold here, but I assume you think silver is also not good to acquire, since it can't be eaten either. I'm certainly not sure, but I think silver (and gold) will have utility, post-apocalypse, because a 'medium of exchange' is just too good of an idea to go away completely. Sure its value will fluctuate relative to other goods but I don't think it'll go to zero or even near-zero. The medium of exchange, assuming I can find someone to trade to or from precious metal lets me sell my excess tomatoes today while they're fresh, without having to anticipate whether I'll need a box of nails or a chicken more, next week. It saves me having to find the one guy in the area that wants some (nice...delicious...juicy) tomatoes as much as he wants to get rid of his extra chicken.

MrB

Main medium of exchange will be

Skilled labor and trades

Agriculture and ranching/food animals

Medium to low tech tools and equipment that can be used

Booze

Medical supplies

Soap

Ammo and weapons

How to books/manuals

Gunpowder and other supplies to reload/reloading tools

Fuel/oil for vehicles

Firewood for heating

Realistically if was truly apocalyptic sci fi scenario, slaves for labor

Probably 50+ other things if I took the time to think more on it

You can't eat gold or silver in the interrim after taking it as "money" until you find someone to take it for their goods/services and if everyone was not on the bandwagon for it as an exchange you would simply have some nice shiny metals

 

[EZLivin]

...a 'medium of exchange' is just too good of an idea to go away completely.
MrB

Totally agree. Societies always adopt a standardized medium of exchange due to the fact that bartering is so inefficient. It is the only way goods and services can be efficiently valued, which is why every successful society goes that route.

 

[Partsproduction]

Skilled labor and trades

We have been counting on that, but of course will need power to run the machines, a 20 KW genset would run all but the three largest machines in the shop, and that would do nicely. But a generator requires diesel fuel and until refineries spool up the barter value of diesel would steadily increase.

It's very difficult to visualize what hasn't happened yet but I'm thinking armed vigilance and patrolling would be necessary 24/7, so right off the bat you have to feed people who aren't needed to produce work.

Thinking about these things strains the brain, because the amount of preparation and money required, coupled with what is probably diminishing time, makes it a pressure cooker based on speculation of the worst situation, and is based on forced pessimism. If it is never needed it's a waste of resources in a time of increasing taxation in a steadily worsening business climate. (Thanks Mr. Obama!)
How did America ever choose that disaster, a true man made disaster!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

We have been counting on that, but of course will need power to run the machines, a 20 KW genset would run all but the three largest machines in the shop, and that would do nicely. But a generator requires diesel fuel and until refineries spool up the barter value of diesel would steadily increase.

Bio diesel is the temporary answer, but that cannot be produced (such as rapeseed crops) until the situation stabilizes and agriculture is somewhat safe again

It's very difficult to visualize what hasn't happened yet but I'm thinking armed vigilance and patrolling would be necessary 24/7, so right off the bat you have to feed people who aren't needed to produce work.

The future favors the well prepared and capable. It's quite easy now to stockpile super long term foods such as grains, dried beans, sugar, salt, etc.. personally I use 60 gallon plastic drums (the kind with the mason jar type lids) to store my dry goods, and I'm always adding something as I can afford it. Here are a few ideas.. and BTW don't believe the 3 to 5 years thing on the dried cheese/butter, they are good for decades if stored right

<broken link removed>

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/wholeoatgroats50lb.aspx

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/powderedbuttercase.aspx

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/powderedcheesecase.aspx



Thinking about these things strains the brain, because the amount of preparation and money required, coupled with what is probably diminishing time, makes it a pressure cooker based on speculation of the worst situation, and is based on forced pessimism. If it is never needed it's a waste of resources in a time of increasing taxation in a steadily worsening business climate. (Thanks Mr. Obama!)
How did America ever choose that disaster, a true man made disaster!

One Big A$$ Mistake America !

 

[djm68]

Hey Blitzkrieg,

You came up with a great SHTF list of goods. But that is not a medium of exchange.

A medium of exchange is an intermediary used in trade to avoid the inconveniences of a pure barter system.

What some people are trying to point out is that, following a major collapse, we need a way to buy/sell goods.

You have bullets but need wheat; I need bullets, but have no wheat, though I do have a goat and some medical supplies. So, I go trundling about with my goat and medical supplies, looking for someone who has wheat, but needs a goat. Anyone can see how quickly this can become infeasible.

So I, I believe the question remains: what will be used as the "medium of exchange". Perhaps it is not gold or silver, maybe salt or spices as some have pointed out.

I do not think people miss the point of gold/silver following a collapse, or even as a modern day medium of exchange. Gold and silver are a known "quantities", they are not easily faked and allows one to convert "hard assets" into a compact, readily identifiable form, useful in further transactions.

Anyhow, just my $.02 on this interesting thread...

DJM

Main medium of exchange will be

Skilled labor and trades

Agriculture and ranching/food animals

Medium to low tech tools and equipment that can be used

Booze

Medical supplies

Soap

Ammo and weapons

How to books/manuals

Gunpowder and other supplies to reload/reloading tools

Fuel/oil for vehicles

Firewood for heating

Realistically if was truly apocalyptic sci fi scenario, slaves for labor

Probably 50+ other things if I took the time to think more on it

You can't eat gold or silver in the interrim after taking it as "money" until you find someone to take it for their goods/services and if everyone was not on the bandwagon for it as an exchange you would simply have some nice shiny metals

 

[Father of four]

I think it was Gunner who said something about buying gold now as an investment for the future after the society restabilizes. I agree. After the SHTF and life becomes normal, gold and silver will most likely be used again as a form of currency. Most civilizations in the our past history have.

But don't forget to realize that without guns or the ability to defend ones self, you might not have a future.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Hey Blitzkrieg,

You came up with a great SHTF list of goods. But that is not a medium of exchange.

A medium of exchange is an intermediary used in trade to avoid the inconveniences of a pure barter system.

What some people are trying to point out is that, following a major collapse, we need a way to buy/sell goods.

You have bullets but need wheat; I need bullets, but have no wheat, though I do have a goat and some medical supplies. So, I go trundling about with my goat and medical supplies, looking for someone who has wheat, but needs a goat. Anyone can see how quickly this can become infeasible.

So I, I believe the question remains: what will be used as the "medium of exchange". Perhaps it is not gold or silver, maybe salt or spices as some have pointed out.

I do not think people miss the point of gold/silver following a collapse, or even as a modern day medium of exchange. Gold and silver are a known "quantities", they are not easily faked and allows one to convert "hard assets" into a compact, readily identifiable form, useful in further transactions.

Anyhow, just my $.02 on this interesting thread...

DJM

I think you're assuming a somewhat peaceful situation which I do not believe will exist for years. If you are not already part of a good sized network of non creeps/psychos, (The Mormon church and rural associations come to mind) barter might be the last thing you'll ever do! (be cautious)

Me, I do not need wheat or ammunition. In fact it's likely I won't need to barter at all, but I'm not a seer, so ..

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I think it was Gunner who said something about buying gold now as an investment for the future after the society restabilizes. I agree. After the SHTF and life becomes normal, gold and silver will most likely be used again as a form of currency. Most civilizations in the our past history have.

But don't forget to realize that without guns or the ability to defend ones self, you might not have a future.

And supplies and location!

 

[Father of four]

That is an excellent point Blitzkrieg. If someone does barter with the wrong person it could get them killed. Indeed, be careful who you show whats in your basket!!!

 

[gunnin88]

i'll take $1,000 of ammo over $1,000 of gold, any day

x1million!!!



http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...g-manipulated-by-major-financial-institutions

 

[gunnin88]

I think you're assuming a somewhat peaceful situation which I do not believe will exist for years. If you are not already part of a good sized network of non creeps/psychos, (The Mormon church and rural associations come to mind) barter might be the last thing you'll ever do! (be cautious)

Me, I do not need wheat or ammunition. In fact it's likely I won't need to barter at all, but I'm not a seer, so ..

Are you married? does your wife have a life time supply of feminine hygene products? There are soooooo many things one could over look while getting ready. I think barter will be the norm

 

[djm68]

x1million!!!



http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...g-manipulated-by-major-financial-institutions

So here is a (serious) question for you guys...maybe another thread would be better, but let me start here.

Lets say you have about $20k in gold you want to "convert" to guns and ammo. The goal of the conversion would be two fold:

1) "preserve" your wealth in a hard asset that can be converted back to $US in the event the SHTF does not unfold.

2) In case the SHTF comes to pass, well, then I am well stocked.

So, what mix of pistols/rifles and ammo would you all suggest?

Thanks,
DJM