Other State Opinions On This Police Shooting.

[DB is Here]

These are not defensive maneuvers.

I won't argue semantics but I disagree with this statement.

 

[Hueco]

I won't argue semantics but I disagree with this statement.

por que?

Don't worry about the semantics; I would like to know the reasoning...?

 

[DB is Here]

Staying out of line of sight and using light are defensive tactics at least from what the academy taught 28 years ago when I went through.

 

[No_Regerts]

This is what a man looks like who is about to die.

View attachment 739117

Here's just before the first shot.

View attachment 739118

The time between these two is less than 1.5 seconds, probably closer to less than 1 second (but I lack the tools to determine)

Whitaker is allowed to live in a crap neighborhood.
He's allowed to carry a gun.
He's allowed to defend himself, his family, and his property.

The officers are clearly out of peephole sight. They shine a bright light in his face the moment he opens the door. These are not defensive maneuvers.

And yet, in the mere moment that it took to get within sight of the officer, Whitaker begins going to the ground.

He was shot for *having* a gun in police presence. Not for aiming it at anyone. No-one's life was in immediate danger just by a guy having a gun.

God help us all if we ever have to use our concealed carry piece and the cops show up right as we're back in low ready, attempting to re-holster, or in sul.

Having a gun in his hand, as he comes out the door after a knock and announce, and not dropping it, is what got him shot. Something we call "Tombstone Courage" in a fight often turns out bad for the officer. Many officers I know and work with have disregarded their own safety for others. Some have lost their lives defending others. But, they shouldn't die trying live up to people's expectations.

 

[DB is Here]

Walk a day in the LEO's shoes normally will change the hearts and minds of most. Go on a ride along if a dept will allow it. Most come away from that experience more informed.

 

[JohnnyMac]

My WYZE cameras are the model that you can rotate or move up and down via the phone app. I could even point one of them at our single neighbor lady that wears a bikini when she washes her boat, if I wanted to, but I don't 'cause that would be wrong and upset my wife who I love totally and sometimes reads my posts.

Same here. I have two more on order for the other side of the house. Unfortunately, if my neighbor lady wore a bikini, I couldn't turn the camera away fast enough.... But she has a nice personality, so there's that.

 

[Hueco]

Staying out of line of sight and using light are defensive tactics at least from what the academy taught 28 years ago when I went through.

Here's a thought experiment: if my neighbors are being loud (which they often are), and I go over there and knock, theget out of sight, weapon drawn, and then blast the guy in the face with a light, only to see him have a gun in hand...so I kill him...am I going to jail?

Walk a day in the LEO's shoes normally will change the hearts and minds of most. Go on a ride along if a dept will allow it. Most come away from that experience more informed.

That's not an argument. Also, how are you so certain that I haven't done what you say? I spent 4 months with both police and fire depts. for a project while in school. Not much but sure as hell more than most.

Your advice goes both ways. Swap shoes recently?

 

[DB is Here]

Here's a thought experiment: if my neighbors are being loud (which they often are), and I go over there and knock, theget out of sight, weapon drawn, and then blast the guy in the face with a light, only to see him have a gun in hand...so I kill him...am I going to jail?

Playing Policeman with your neighbor wouldn't likely be the best idea...YMMV

Your advice goes both ways. Swap shoes recently?

Ive never had a DV called on my wife and I. Maybe it's true and we are boring as my kids say.

 

[No_Regerts]

Here's a thought experiment: if my neighbors are being loud (which they often are), and I go over there and knock, theget out of sight, weapon drawn, and then blast the guy in the face with a light, only to see him have a gun in hand...so I kill him...am I going to jail?



That's not an argument. Also, how are you so certain that I haven't done what you say? I spent 4 months with both police and fire depts. for a project while in school. Not much but sure as hell more than most.

Your advice goes both ways. Swap shoes recently?

You, as a neighbor, are not a sworn law enforcement officer that has been dispatched to a location to investigate a possible DV situation. You have no legal standing to do as you describe. You would most definitely go to jail. However, it would not be unprecedented for a citizen to then get released after facts come out. Happened here when a man went on to break up a fight on his neighbors property, the guys turned on him and he shot both of them.

You keep harping about them taking cover. Have you ever heard of the "fatal funnel"? We don't stand in doorways or hallways were it makes it easier for us to get shot. The cop knock and "So and So police department! Come to the door!" is meant to inform people of who you are. I've done this a thousand times and most people said, "Who?" or "Let me put my pants on" or came to the door, whatever. Thankfully no one came charging out with a gun in their hand because it would have resulted in someone getting shot and I'm not waiting around for it to be me. I have had several people come out pissed and realized they weren't in a good spot when they saw how many guns were drawn on them. That's a coerced arrest.

Did your school project teach you case law concerning use of force? Did you read pages and pages of incident reports and watch hours of video with a certified use of force instructor? Did you go through scenario training where your mistakes got you beat on or shot with sim rounds? Did you get to apply any of that on real people where you were accountable for the outcome?

I totally understand that you seem to identify with the guy who got shot. You don't think he did anything wrong. I feel bad for him too and I don't think he had any ill intent after he figured out what he had outside his apartment. But, I got to watch the incident from the comfort of my own home where I was safe and had no dog in the fight. I got to use replay and slo-mo and watched it enough times that I no longer have an instant, fair, and unbiased view of what happened.

 

[bbbass]

And yet, in the mere moment that it took to get within sight of the officer, Whitaker begins going to the ground.

He was shot for *having* a gun in police presence. Not for aiming it at anyone. No-one's life was in immediate danger just by a guy having a gun.

God help us all if we ever have to use our concealed carry piece and the cops show up right as we're back in low ready, attempting to re-holster, or in sul.

It has ever been so, that a gun and movement in police presence can get you shot. Most times it will. Reasonable people don't expect LEOs to fail to defend themselves. So if you ever encounter police with a gun in your hand, FREEZE!!! Then follow instructions! DO NOT MOVE A MUSCLE UNLESS TOLD TO DO SO!!!

 

[Hueco]

Playing Policeman with your neighbor wouldn't likely be the best idea...YMMV



Ive never had a DV called on my wife and I. Maybe it's true and we are boring as my kids say.

Your response is deliberately obtuse and I'm not sure why...?

 

[Hueco]

You, as a neighbor, are not a sworn law enforcement officer that has been dispatched to a location to investigate a possible DV situation. You have no legal standing to do as you describe. You would most definitely go to jail. However, it would not be unprecedented for a citizen to then get released after facts come out. Happened here when a man went on to break up a fight on his neighbors property, the guys turned on him and he shot both of them.

You're right, I'm not a sworn law enforcement officer. More and more it appears that I would have more room for bad action if I were. I don't believe that the actions that should govern our interactions as humans in this society are morally different between citizens and law enforcement. Moreso, I expect law enforcement to swear an oath to act in the most righteous ways possible given the power and responsibility given to them.

If my repeating these actions as a private citizen are morally suspect and legally wrong, then why would I expect less from a police officer?

Legally, you may be right - this may be a "justified" shoot. Morally, that officer had a responsibility to his arrestee and he shirked that responsibility and now a life is gone, other lives forever changed in a negative way, and absolutely nothing will come of this. Doesn't sound like justice, to me.

You keep harping about them taking cover. Have you ever heard of the "fatal funnel"? We don't stand in doorways or hallways were it makes it easier for us to get shot. The cop knock and "So and So police department! Come to the door!" is meant to inform people of who you are. I've done this a thousand times and most people said, "Who?" or "Let me put my pants on" or came to the door, whatever. Thankfully no one came charging out with a gun in their hand because it would have resulted in someone getting shot and I'm not waiting around for it to be me. I have had several people come out pissed and realized they weren't in a good spot when they saw how many guns were drawn on them. That's a coerced arrest.

Everyone has head of the fatal funnel. My point about the cover is that the officers set Whitaker up for failure by remaining out of view. The guy obviously heard the knock, not the call out. If he did look out of a peephole, he saw no-one and then acted accordingly with his beliefs on his safety at the time. The police acted in a way that set him up to fail - indeed any of us who would have been disconcerted, grabbed a nearby gun, and went to take a look.

Their training failed Whitaker, and by extension, all of us.

Did your school project teach you case law concerning use of force? Did you read pages and pages of incident reports and watch hours of video with a certified use of force instructor? Did you go through scenario training where your mistakes got you beat on or shot with sim rounds? Did you get to apply any of that on real people where you were accountable for the outcome?

Yes. No. Spectated. Spectated.

I totally understand that you seem to identify with the guy who got shot. You don't think he did anything wrong. I feel bad for him too and I don't think he had any ill intent after he figured out what he had outside his apartment. But, I got to watch the incident from the comfort of my own home where I was safe and had no dog in the fight. I got to use replay and slo-mo and watched it enough times that I no longer have an instant, fair, and unbiased view of what happened.

Exiting one's home with a gun in hand and behind one's back to investigate a loud knock at night is doing nothing wrong, legally or morally.

Like I said before - he was killed for having a gun in police presence. If you think that the cops did nothing wrong here, god help me if I ever need to draw and the cops come up on me while I still have gun in hand.

 

[Hueco]

It has ever been so, that a gun and movement in police presence can get you shot. Most times it will. Reasonable people don't expect LEOs to fail to defend themselves. So if you ever encounter police with a gun in your hand, FREEZE!!! Then follow instructions! DO NOT MOVE A MUSCLE UNLESS TOLD TO DO SO!!!

That is a sad commentary on the state of affairs, if ever there was.

 

[DB is Here]

Your response is deliberately obtuse and I'm not sure why...?

I answered at face value, I'll see myself out.

 

[No_Regerts]

You're right, I'm not a sworn law enforcement officer. More and more it appears that I would have more room for bad action if I were. I don't believe that the actions that should govern our interactions as humans in this society are morally different between citizens and law enforcement. Moreso, I expect law enforcement to swear an oath to act in the most righteous ways possible given the power and responsibility given to them.

If my repeating these actions as a private citizen are morally suspect and legally wrong, then why would I expect less from a police officer?

Legally, you may be right - this may be a "justified" shoot. Morally, that officer had a responsibility to his arrestee and he shirked that responsibility and now a life is gone, other lives forever changed in a negative way, and absolutely nothing will come of this. Doesn't sound like justice, to me.



Everyone has head of the fatal funnel. My point about the cover is that the officers set Whitaker up for failure by remaining out of view. The guy obviously heard the knock, not the call out. If he did look out of a peephole, he saw no-one and then acted accordingly with his beliefs on his safety at the time. The police acted in a way that set him up to fail - indeed any of us who would have been disconcerted, grabbed a nearby gun, and went to take a look.

Their training failed Whitaker, and by extension, all of us.


Yes. No. Spectated. Spectated.



Exiting one's home with a gun in hand and behind one's back to investigate a loud knock at night is doing nothing wrong, legally or morally.

Like I said before - he was killed for having a gun in police presence. If you think that the cops did nothing wrong here, god help me if I ever need to draw and the cops come up on me while I still have gun in hand.

In reality, a private citizen has more leeway to use deadly force in some circumstances. For instance, in states that follow castle doctrine or stand your ground.

Unfortunately, your assertions about the right to the arrestee went out the window when he responded to a lawful order, or appeared to, bu coming outside with the gun in his hand at his side. When he first came out, it was in plain view and not behind his back. He then made a move to hide it while maintaining it in his hand. When he tries to go to the ground, its still in his hand.

I get it, it sucks and the guy died over it. But this isn't the hill to die on when it comes to good/bad shoots.

 

[uberguy]

Interesting discussion, as other remarked we have limited information to base a qualified judgement.
Given that, I don't believe the officer would be charged or found criminally liable but with these limited circumstances, 'Show Me Your Hands' is not a good command to issue when someone is armed at their home.

I suspect there will be a civil lawsuit and the City of Phoenix will settle out of court.

 

[No_Regerts]

Interesting discussion, as other remarked we have limited information to base a qualified judgement.
Given that, I don't believe the officer would be charged or found criminally liable but with these limited circumstances, 'Show Me Your Hands' is not a good command to issue when someone is armed at their home.

I suspect there will be a civil lawsuit and the City of Phoenix will settle out of court.

Having knocked, announced their agency, and provided a directive prior to him coming out with the gun will probably absolve them of liability. I'd tell him to show me his hands as well. I can't think of another directive to give that would be more appropriate.

 

[bbbass]

That is a sad commentary on the state of affairs, if ever there was.

Note that it has nothing to do with the "current" state of affairs... it's always been that way. Did your mommy never tell you that when a LEO pulls you over, you put your hands at 10 and 2 on the steering wheel, don't be moving around or rummaging for things in the car/console/glovebox/undertheseat, be polite, and follow instructions. I learned that in the 1960s. Yet you think it's a state of affairs... no, it's reality. How many times have you read that it is dangerous for a "good guy with a gun" to get involved in a shooting incident with police present, that they need to cease and put away the firearm before the police arrive??? Firearms out is a dangerous environment for all parties involved. Period.

Conversely, the shoot in Wisconsin sounds like it more meets your complaint. The DV suspect refused to comply and was going into his car when he was shot several times in the back... was he going for a gun? Had he threatened the officers? Not enough info at this time. But lacking more info it would seem that the officer may have jumped to the conclusion that the suspect was going for something. No gun was reported found.

 

[Hueco]

Note that it has nothing to do with the "current" state of affairs... it's always been that way. Did your mommy never tell you that when a LEO pulls you over, you put your hands at 10 and 2 on the steering wheel, don't be moving around or rummaging for things in the car/console/glovebox/undertheseat, be polite, and follow instructions. I learned that in the 1960s. Yet you think it's a state of affairs... no, it's reality. How many times have you read that it is dangerous for a "good guy with a gun" to get involved in a shooting incident with police present, that they need to cease and put away the firearm before the police arrive??? Firearms out is a dangerous environment for all parties involved. Period.

Conversely, the shoot in Wisconsin sounds like it more meets your complaint. The DV suspect refused to comply and was going into his car when he was shot several times in the back... was he going for a gun? Had he threatened the officers? Not enough info at this time. But lacking more info it would seem that the officer may have jumped to the conclusion that the suspect was going for something. No gun was reported found.

Actually, I was told to very quickly get license from my wallet, my registration from my glove box, to put both on the dash, and then to put my hands out the window. This way, there should be no conceivable reason for me to get shot at a routine stop because the cop "thought he saw a gun" in my glovebox or got scared when I reached for my wallet.

That such is even a risk is...yep...sad commentary.

 

[uberguy]

Having knocked, announced their agency, and provided a directive prior to him coming out with the gun will probably absolve them of liability. I'd tell him to show me his hands as well. I can't think of another directive to give that would be more appropriate.

"Show me your hands" means he's ordered to raise the weapon in his hand, while at his home. As another commented, there is no assurance the earlier announcement was clearly heard. It's ambiguous circumstances based on available information. But "Don't Move" would have been better.