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Open Carry vs Concealed Carry in Banned Cities

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by irehog66, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. irehog66

    irehog66 SE Portland Member

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    I'm new to this forum so the answers I seek may be posted already but I could not find them - so don't shoot me yet!

    I am all about open carry. I truly appreciate the wisdom of open carry. I have an Oregon CHL and carry everyday. But more and more open carry appeals to me. I am also all about making a statement about who I am and the rights that are mine by virtue of who we are and where we live.

    I live in Portland - enough said. I have LE friends - they all have different OPINIONS - enough said!

    I want to be able to open carry in the City of Portland if I can legally.

    I understand the conceptual difference and rules between open carry and concealed carry in Oregon. BUT I AM REALLY FOGGY ABOUT OPEN CARRY IN BANNED CITIES.
    Its obvious that there are members that do open carry LOADED firearms in banned cities.

    I've read the Portland statute over and over - I'm missing some language somewhere!

    The Portland statute prohibits the possession of loaded firearms . . . blah blah. One of the exceptions to the rule is CHL holders. I GET THAT PART. But I would assume that the exception is possession in the concealed sense - not open carry.

    For those of you that do open carry LOADED firearms - how do you interpret possession?

    Any help on this would be appreciated!!
     
  2. glockguy

    glockguy Albany Oregon Well-Known Member

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    if u have a CHL you can OC a loaded fire arm in Banned cities
     
  3. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    +1 that is correct. :thumbup:
     
  4. irehog66

    irehog66 SE Portland Member

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    Thanks for the input. I think that I was a little hung up on the definition of POSSESSION.
    as it pertains to the Portland statutes.

    Possession = OC or CC

    thanks
     
  5. stitchclimber

    stitchclimber St. Louis Active Member

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    I open in Portland, and believe me you will get harassed by cops who don't know the law.
     
  6. SnackCracker

    SnackCracker Lake oswego, OR Member

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    Oregon State laws have preemption over city and county laws. Here are specific statutes you may want to print and keep a copy with your CHL when you open carry. I also included the ORS which entitles a CHL holder to carry a firearm into public buildings or SCHOOL PROPERTY.

    I also included 166.250 & 166.260. You should familiarize yourself with these laws as well.

    ORS Statutes:

    166.173 Authority of city or county to regulate possession of loaded firearms in public places.
    (1) A city or county may adopt ordinances to regulate, restrict or prohibit the possession of loaded firearms in public places as defined in ORS 161.015.

    (2) Ordinances adopted under subsection (1) of this section do not apply to or affect:

    (a) A law enforcement officer in the performance of official duty.

    (b) A member of the military in the performance of official duty.

    (c) A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

    (d) A person authorized to possess a loaded firearm while in or on a public building or court facility under ORS 166.370.

    (e) An employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, who possesses a loaded firearm in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife. [1995 s.s. c.1 §4; 1999 c.782 §8; 2009 c.556 §3]

    --------------------------------------------------



    ORS 166.370
    (Schools and public buildings)

    166.370 Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility; exceptions; discharging firearm at school. (1) Any person who intentionally possesses a loaded or unloaded firearm or any other instrument used as a dangerous weapon, while in or on a public building, shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.

    (2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a person who intentionally possesses:

    (A) A firearm in a court facility is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony. A person who intentionally possesses a firearm in a court facility shall surrender the firearm to a law enforcement officer.

    (B) A weapon, other than a firearm, in a court facility may be required to surrender the weapon to a law enforcement officer or to immediately remove it from the court facility. A person who fails to comply with this subparagraph is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony.

    (b) The presiding judge of a judicial district may enter an order permitting the possession of specified weapons in a court facility.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:


    (a) A sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers or a corrections officer while acting within the scope of employment.

    (b) A person summoned by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace, while the summoned person is engaged in assisting the officer.

    (c) An active or reserve member of the military forces of this state or the United States, when engaged in the performance of duty.

    (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.

    (e) A person who is authorized by the officer or agency that controls the public building to possess a firearm or dangerous weapon in that public building.

    (f) An employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, who possesses a firearm in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife.

    (g) Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:

    (A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and

    (B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle.

    (4) The exceptions listed in subsection (3)(b) to (g) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section.

    (5)(a) Any person who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.

    (b) Paragraph (a) of this subsection does not apply to the discharge of a firearm:

    (A) As part of a program approved by a school in the school by an individual who is participating in the program;

    (B) By a law enforcement officer acting in the officer’s official capacity; or

    (C) By an employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife.

    (6) Any weapon carried in violation of this section is subject to the forfeiture provisions of ORS 166.279.

    (7) Notwithstanding the fact that a person’s conduct in a single criminal episode constitutes a violation of both subsections (1) and (5) of this section, the district attorney may charge the person with only one of the offenses.

    (8) As used in this section, “dangerous weapon” means a dangerous weapon as that term is defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §§2,4; 1977 c.207 §2; 1979 c.398 §2; 1989 c.839 §22; 1989 c.982 §5; 1991 c.67 §39; 1993 c.625 §1; 1999 c.782 §7; 1999 c.1040 §4; 2001 c.666 §§24,36; 2003 c.614 §6; 2009 c.556 §6]

    ----------------------------------------------

    166.250. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:

    (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;

    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or

    (c) Possesses a firearm and:

    (A) Is under 18 years of age;

    (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and

    (ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;

    (C) Has been convicted of a felony;

    (D) Was committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130;

    (E) Was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or

    (F) Has been found guilty except for insanity under ORS 161.295 of a felony.

    (2) This section does not prohibit:

    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:

    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minor’s parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minor’s parent or guardian; or

    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or

    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person’s place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person’s place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, “residence” includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.

    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

    (4)(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.

    etc....
    (Edited to reduce post size).

    -------------------------------------------------------

    166.260 Persons not affected by ORS 166.250. (1) ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:

    (a) Sheriffs, constables, marshals, parole and probation officers, police officers, whether active or honorably retired, or other duly appointed peace officers.

    (b) Any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while said person so summoned is actually engaged in assisting the officer.

    (c) The possession or transportation by any merchant of unloaded firearms as merchandise.

    (d) Active or reserve members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard or Marine Corps of the United States, or of the National Guard, when on duty.

    (e) Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons described in ORS 166.250 from the United States, or from this state.

    (f) Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or the members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.

    (g) A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.

    (h) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.


    ....EDITED .... Post was too long.
     
  7. SnackCracker

    SnackCracker Lake oswego, OR Member

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  8. glockguy

    glockguy Albany Oregon Well-Known Member

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    i LOVE the idea of open carry, but the trouble with the Cops isnt worth it
     
  9. stitchclimber

    stitchclimber St. Louis Active Member

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    You're in Albany, it shouldn't be a big deal. In Portland I've been asked to leave one store, had the cops show up at my door twice, and been stopped once while walking... Thats all in over 2+ years of OC
     
  10. SnackCracker

    SnackCracker Lake oswego, OR Member

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    If you have trouble, be sure to have the right ATTITUDE and present the ORS statutes in a respectable manner. If the police don't know the law, then it is a good opportunity to educate them.

    Personally I choose to carry concealed for my own reasons - not because of legal reasons.
     
  11. glockguy

    glockguy Albany Oregon Well-Known Member

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    ok well I got asked to leave a subway lol and bimart.. the dude at subway didnt know i was personal friends with the manager and for some reason doesn't work there anymore after i told her... hmmmmm:)

    but on a more serious note stitchclimber What did you say to the cops all those times? Im never sure what to say to them.

    also are the ORS statutes in a lil booklet somewhere so i can put it in my wallet? or am i supposed to memorize it? lol
     
  12. SnackCracker

    SnackCracker Lake oswego, OR Member

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    I have ORS 166.173 and 166.370 printed on a piece of paper folded up with my CHL.
    (I just made a note and listed 250 & 260 on the paper. I know those two are the ones that keep the LEO from being able to arrest or cite me)
     
  13. stitchclimber

    stitchclimber St. Louis Active Member

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    Talk as little as you can. Ask if you are being detained or if you are free to go, and always verbally refuse a search.

    I did not handle my cop encounters well. I now know my rights concerning being detained, and submitting to search much better. (Be sure to understand those rights)

    Encounter #1
    Passerby called the cops, I was shirtless and cleaning my car with a visible IWB. Cops showed up, took my gun, asked to see my permit. Gave my gun and ID back to me and left.

    Encounter #2
    Had the police called on me while leaving a burgerville. Cops showed up while walking home. Cops were extremely rude to me. Took my gun and I'd frisked me. Yelled at me, threatened to arrest me. Then left my gun on the sidewalk and instructed me not to move until they were out of sight.

    Needless to say they got a complaint filed against them.

    Encounter #3
    Cops show up to my door a few days after encounter #2
    Someone saw me getting into my car with a gun.

    I stepped out onto the front porch to speak with them. They informed me that I was on the verge of loosing my license to carry and left.
     
  14. irehog66

    irehog66 SE Portland Member

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    Come on. . . . small print in a wallet? this is 2010 . . . Now you can download a pdf file to your cell phone! LOL:D
     
  15. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    You were doing it wrong.
     
  16. Decidion

    Decidion Washington county, Oregon Member

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    I have not open carried in Portland and just don't think it is worth the hassle, and here is why...

    You can legally open carry within the city limits if you have a CHL, but I have heard about a number of times where officers will still arrest or cite you on a "disturbing the peace" type of offense. Either they know it ultimately won't stick or don't care, but they will still do it just to get you off the street with your weapon. I read something about the Chief of Police feels it is much better to arrest someone and later release them than to deal with the public unrest of the cities majority of gun fearing liberals who get freaked out when they see a gun on a non-LEO's hip.

    Now maybe there is someone with the time/money/resources to push this issue all the way up to the State Supreme court (and more power to them!!) to get them to stop this harassment, but I just do not have those resources.
     
  17. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    So... do you have any suggestions then?
     
  18. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    I am having a problem with why anyone wants to open carry if they have a CHL.
    First it just opens you up to uneeded problems. It lets the bad actors know who to take out first in a robbery, or at least puts them into hair trigger mental state. It makes you look like you are challenger to laws that many just do not comprehend. I have carried for over 40 yrs, clear back to the old paper gun designated permit days and have never once had any problems
    because not many know or realise that I carry 24-7
    Then there is the retention issue. MOST CHL holders may be trained in Safety and generally good carry and
    operational proceedures, but very few have taken the time to learn good firearms retention techniques. If you think the mere presence of a firearm is a deterrent to a bad actor making you a victim, think again. All open carry does is make it known you have an easy source for him to gain his next weapon to commit a crime should he decide to take. Hardened idiots do not reason as the average citizen does and thay are takers and if they want your gun they won't telegraph their intent. You will just wake up in the hospital wondering what the **** hit you or you may not wake up at all. I thinik it is better to have that element of surprise in preventing yourself from becoming a victim. Knowing how and when to use your firearm and the fact that if put into a position to have to use it, you have the advantage of usually knowing that the perps mind is not on being shot by you, but more on the greed of the crime he is perpetrating and things unrelated to someone defending themself against him. A major advantage to you.
    I have open carried, but mostly when hunting, fishing, backpacking, but not in an urban daily life activity. You know that legally you can if you wish, but why add that to the rest of the greif you face on a daily basis from the idiots that have no clue.
    A good class on firearms retention should be a priority in your training, because in the Penal Universities, you can bet they study every day on how to defeat you and take what they want from you and that includes your gun if they want it bad enough. Why stick it out to the forefront and make it easy for them? Criminals have little to no moral ethics and seldom hesitate to harm anyone. That puts them at an advantage over most of you that do have the common resepct for life. Unless trained, mostly mentally, but physically as well to set aside the hesitation to harm anyone, that criminal already has an advantage over you. They have no hesitation in the willingness to take your life or your posessions. Open carry just makes an open easy target to aquire for them, and My guess is you won't see it coming, so why open yourself up to that ??
    Just my personal opinion. Silent stealthy confident and aware and trained to survive and you will generally be the one who makes it back.
     
  19. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    All excellent points! Although I don't have a "problem" with OC, I for one don't "feel the need" to OC as I was just discussing with my wife the very things you you mentioned (while we were sitting inside the Safeway/Starbucks on our "weekly coffee date" watching all "types" of people come and go).

    Good judgement is always called for when exercising one's 2A rights. Just because "you can", dosen't always mean "you should", but again that should be left to the individual to decide... and they have to deal with the effects it may cause.
     
  20. stitchclimber

    stitchclimber St. Louis Active Member

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    Name one case where the person "open carrying" was target first by an BG (LEO asside)