Open Carry vs Concealed Carry in Banned Cities

[Stomper]

Name one case where the person "open carrying" was target first by an BG (LEO asside)

I don't think there being any "documented cases" (or not) is the point of what was being "got at". I think the point is/was about wise & effective 2A tactics being employed in the enviroment(s) you find yourself... in whatever "day and time" you are living in. In days of yore it was more commonplace to OC, and criminals operated in entirely different manners/methods. Today they are more vicious, more cunning, more apathetic, more aggressive, and less fearful of "the system".

Again, I'm NOT against OC, there are perfectly excellent times/places to do it, and if it makes someone "feel safer" doing that, more power to them, BUT all things aside, you do put yourself at a more "tactical disadvantage". Its a VALID argument to say (documented cases or not) that CC is a better deterrent (albiet maybe not in ALL cases) to a sociopath acting on his/her "impulses" for fear of not knowing which direction the "hammer" will fall.



... and the "LEO aside" caveat of your counter-point is questionable as it would stand to reason that a BG would be more fearful of a GROUP of LEO's who are presumably better trained than your typical "pot-bellied" citizen just minding his own business, while sportin' (for all to see) his $1,400 1911A1 Dan Wesson Combat Commader in a $300 OWB holster, eatin' his chili dog and pickin' his nose at the mall.

 

[irehog66]

Taku,

I second Stitchclimber's request.

I respect your input. I respect your opinion - but it is just that.

I misrepresented myself a bit on purpose hoping for detained opinions on Portland specifically.

I asked for input about open carrying LOADED weapons in Portland. I have not done that yet. I have CC for some time now. Being in Portland I have found myself more and more wanting to create a deterrent, but couldn't because I was in CC mode.

My "LE friends" are actually my brother - CC sheriff deputy, cousin - LAC sheriff deputy, and a couple of LEO from PPB that I BBQ with. They all have differing opinions, and only one was right on as it pertains to the LAW.

Again I appreciate that you have been CC for 40 years. However that doesn't make you the expert about what I should be doing. I take some offense that you suggest that I need training to clear up my reasoning for OC.

I have LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of training, and it didn't come from books and dvds, although I do have some. For example, 10 of my friends and I are going to a PRIVATE course at GUNSITE in May. I will be taking a carbine class and a combat shooting class.

You are very misinformed about OC. The reason the LE open carry is not to create targets - it is a DETERRENT. LE will also tell you that most BG are cowards - that's why they run! A reasonably fit person with good training can draw, fire, and take down a suspect that has already drawn or pointed his weapon - THAT IS A FACT. this can be done from OC or CC. If you can't do that you shouldn't be OC or CC. BG have no idea what hair trigger means - and those that do shoot - are about as accurate as the Taliban!

I respectfully disagree with your suggestions, the men that have trained me, have been in face-to-face, end of life type situations, and will tell you that proper posturing, and OC are very much a deterrent. Up until now I did not feel prepared to do that.

You really should get your facts clear first. I respect your input - but it is not realistic or even close to being accurate or relevant for my situation.

I have been CC for a long time. I have always had a sense of community since I was a young man - must have been boy scouts. The only reason I don't do LE work now is a bad knee - couldn't pass that the PT to go FED. I OC in my neighborhood so that they know they can count on me if they ever need it . . . not to scare them or attract bad guys - you watch too many movies. I don't need a firearm to save my life in a CQ situation. I can kill a person without a firearm. In an OC situation I can deter a BG from evening thinking about screwing with me, or anyone around me - which is the real reason I carry.

I have already made a very EDUCATED decision based on thousands of dollars of TRAINING. I was asking for experience of those that have stepped into the OC world in Portland before me.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Gunner3456]

I respect anyone's right to do as he chooses so I'm not arguing.

Just for me, knowing that many people including many LEO's will raise a fuss if they see open carry, I don't need the hassle. If it's about "proving or demonstrating" that I have the right to carry, I don't feel a need to prove anything.

I have the right to free speech but I'm not going to yell at you to irritate you, nor am I going to get a soap box and preach my beliefs about politics or anything else on a street corner.

I just don't have a desire to "get in people's faces" about anything. If a BG ever needs to know I have a gun he will already be feeling the impact of bullets.

I conceal to avoid hassles and to avoid making people feel uncomfortable, but that's just for me.

You have the right to do as you please.

 

[irehog66]

GUNNER3456

You said it ! ! ! thank you.
I'm not at a point that I feel that OC is for me at all times - for the reasons you don't. But because of my own situation there are times that OC is prudent. I'm not afraid of getting stopped or challenged by LEOs. They are just people too, who certainly don't know everything.

 

[Gunner3456]

GUNNER3456

You said it ! ! ! thank you.
I'm not at a point that I feel that OC is for me at all times - for the reasons you don't. But because of my own situation there are times that OC is prudent. I'm not afraid of getting stopped or challenged by LEOs. They are just people too, who certainly don't know everything.

Well, I do open carry under a few circumstances. We live on rural acreage so if I'm just going to be outside my neighbors won't be bothered by it, even if they get close enough to see it. I will also leave it that way if I'm just going down to the country store because the owners know me well. Same for a couple of small local restaurants etc., but it's the exception, not the rule, and the owners and even some customers know me. So do the police.

Again, just the exceptions where I know I won't be hassled or worry anyone.

 

[U201491]

There is one additional consideration.
If you have a CHL, every action you take
be it OC or Concealed. What you do is
reflected to every one of us that also have aCHL.
If you attract attention to yourself in a negative
manner, act irresponsibly or neglegent, it will
have a negative impact on every one of us
once the media circus begins.
I would hope that every single person with a CHL
is responsible enough to not let that happen.
In my "OPINION" open cary in a city like Portland is
going to lead to problems and may cost you a bundle
to sort those problems out, but as stated that is an individual
choice and each of us have to live with
the results of the choices we make.
To us it us just asking for trouble either legally or just inconvienence.
To the person asking for input, that is our little bit of input for what you feel it is worth...........
Portland has been called "Moscow on the Willamette" and the analogy is not far off <G> Let us all know how it goes

 

[irehog66]

Taku,

I really don't know what to say . . . . I take back what I said earlier, I have little respect for people like you, really.

First you suggest that I personally have no training, WRONG!

Now you suggest that I have no empathy for other CCers or OCers, WRONG AGAIN.

Do you really think that you are the only person in this state that can be trusted with the rights that we have all been given as Americans?

Maybe you should move to Canada - then you won't have to worry about anyone being cavalier with YOUR rights.

OC IS THE LAW IN THE STATE OF OREGON . . . SO YOU WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE DON'T EXERCISE THAT RIGHT "BECAUSE THEY MIGHT TAKE IT AWAY FROM US"!!!!!!!!!

Please let me reiterate my original posts.

I was asking for experience from members that OC in Portland. I have no idea where you are from because you don't want anybody to know that.

I appreciate all of the comments here - except yours. So please find some other high horse to get on.

My intentions have nothing to do with going out and making a broad statement in my community, and trying to ruin things for others whether good competent CCers or any myriad of yahoos or paranoid CCers.

My intentions are really not relevant here, but if I choose to walk into the store, walk around the block in open carry . . . . .what is wrong with that.

Not that people from all shades of 2A opinions aren't important, but what you are advocating is dangerous. I understand conceding battles to win the war, but individual rights does not apply to that argument. Art of War is a great book, should be required reading. While it has no direct correlation, it has a lot of great concepts of what to do, and when to do it.

If I come upon a situation where it is prudent to OC - I will. The purpose of my post was to draw from real experience of like minded people in my area. Generalities and misinformation and broad brush opinion is a waste. I cannot quantify anything you've said here, and what was valid is awash because there is no respect behind it.

Very sad. Why would I "let us know how it goes"? so you can criticize me some more and hide behind your luke warm mask? . . . come on.

 

[U201491]

Taku,

I really don't know what to say . . . . I take back what I said earlier, I have little respect for people like you, really.

First you suggest that I personally have no training, WRONG!

Now you suggest that I have no empathy for other CCers or OCers, WRONG AGAIN.

Do you really think that you are the only person in this state that can be trusted with the rights that we have all been given as Americans?

Maybe you should move to Canada - then you won't have to worry about anyone being cavalier with YOUR rights.

OC IS THE LAW IN THE STATE OF OREGON . . . SO YOU WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE DON'T EXERCISE THAT RIGHT "BECAUSE THEY MIGHT TAKE IT AWAY FROM US"!!!!!!!!!

Please let me reiterate my original posts.

I was asking for experience from members that OC in Portland. I have no idea where you are from because you don't want anybody to know that.

I appreciate all of the comments here - except yours. So please find some other high horse to get on.

My intentions have nothing to do with going out and making a broad statement in my community, and trying to ruin things for others whether good competent CCers or any myriad of yahoos or paranoid CCers.

My intentions are really not relevant here, but if I choose to walk into the store, walk around the block in open carry . . . . .what is wrong with that.

Not that people from all shades of 2A opinions aren't important, but what you are advocating is dangerous. I understand conceding battles to win the war, but individual rights does not apply to that argument. Art of War is a great book, should be required reading. While it has no direct correlation, it has a lot of great concepts of what to do, and when to do it.

If I come upon a situation where it is prudent to OC - I will. The purpose of my post was to draw from real experience of like minded people in my area. Generalities and misinformation and broad brush opinion is a waste. I cannot quantify anything you've said here, and what was valid is awash because there is no respect behind it.

Very sad. Why would I "let us know how it goes"? so you can criticize me some more and hide behind your luke warm mask? . . . come on.

You jump to a lot of assumptions.
More like a chip on your shoulder?
I have been a life member of the NRA and OSSA for
probably longer than you have been alive, and strong supporter of GOA, RKBA, USCCA, and OFF and have
faught for Second Amendment rights since the 50's.

What you do in the way you carry is your option.
Open or concealed makes little difference to us in any
way unless it is done in a non responsible way.
If that is the intent, it makes the work of all gun owners harder to fight these battles. That was my message.
ie; what ever you just do it responsibly. If you don't do at least that you are a loose cannon and harm
everyone that values their rights. Is that too hard to fathom. Well that was all my message was.
I gave you my opinion on OC in Portland from 65 years of living in and around this area and from experience
dealing with the leftists that propogate there.
They are confrontational and you have to live with your choice. Just don't affect everyone elses rights by doing it
stupidly. It took us a long time to get the CHL bill passed.
You asked for opinions of carrying Open in Portland we gave ours. You have lots of opinions to read, but ours is we wouldn't advocate it in the most liberal city in the State next to Eugene. If you want the greif, then by all means go for it

 

[irehog66]

I still don't understand your disrespect. I still don't understand why you keep saying 'WE","US"? I'm not seeing any elitest opinions here but your's. I can appreciate your affiliations relative to 2A rights. But then again, you act as if you are the only one.

The purpose of my post was not to be the genesis of a long debate. Words are difficult right now because I don't want to be disrepectful. Wisdom and the avoidance of hubiris don't always come with age.

 

[U201491]

I still don't understand your disrespect. I still don't understand why you keep saying 'WE","US"? I'm not seeing any elitest opinions here but your's. I can appreciate your affiliations relative to 2A rights. But then again, you act as if you are the only one.

The purpose of my post was not to be the genesis of a long debate. Words are difficult right now because I don't want to be disrepectful. Wisdom and the avoidance of hubiris don't always come with age.

I will tell you the battle has been long and tiring and will never end. I have lived by the "From my cold dead hands"
far longer than it was heard from Charlton Heston and have faught on the front lines in door to door recall
attempts "In Portland" and have written to legislators probably in excess of a million letters over the years
and every year we have to fight again somewhere someplace and if you do not think that gets tiresome,
well wait til you are in your 60's and see it ahead for the rest of your life. Every action of every gun owner has an influence on what comes up in the legislature
and there are millions of anti's waiting baited for every opportunity to make gun owners look bad.
I think it is prudent to make all of us, me included, think about every action we take. Those actions affect us all.

I do not want to see anyone provide the Anti's with ammunition to use against us in the legislative process.

The CHL is growing nation wide and it aggrevates the Anti's as they know we are right and they cannot detect
who does and who doesn't and they have no means to tell.
Why do you think we faught the disclosure of CHL info to them so hard? We as many millions will as a last resort
fight to retain our Constution, but if that can be accomplished without that ...much the better.
I didn't express an opinion here to get you riled or direct any negative comments to you directly, but more to
make people think about the fact everything they do is reflective on every law abiding gun owner that values the Constitution and this country.
Be respectful, do it right and be responsible and when the time comes if needed shoot straight without
hesitation. No More no less will keep this all intact. The CHL has one purpose, keep you, your family and your friends safe if needed.

That was the intent of the 2nd Amendment .... to keep this Nation free and safe. There are way to many that would deny you that. Just do not give any of them anythng to use against you.

Ultimately what you do is 100&#37; up to you and each of us has that same right of choice. Thanks largly to the US Constitution.

Many still to this day do not understand that document and what it has given us. Stop taking things so personal and just think.
Your life and future depend on that simple task. As do ours.
Again just don't take things so personal and just think before you act and do what you know is right and you will be fine. Nothing personal.
Again as for Portland, we recomend against the OC there, untill the mindset of the liberal is changed, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Our education system has created them, and that is where to change the attitudes we have to deal with.

If more people would have listened to McCarthy in the 50's we woud not be where we are today.

 

[irehog66]

Taku,

I think you are missing the spirit of what I'm trying to say. Again, I can appreciate your affiliations, and your personal sacrifice relative to OUR as in mine as well . . .2A rights in Oregon. I am not debating that. What I am saying is, the way in which you are saying it, is disrespectful, and minimizes your service.

If you have been following these posts then you would see that I'm not advocating 24/7 open carry in Portland. What I was asking for was experience of those that do. I have a couple of retired senior officers from PPB that are personal friends of of my family. I BBQ with a couple of PBB LEO. one that is a trainer. BEFORE I ADDRESS THEM ABOUT OC I wanted opinions of members here on this forum.

You get so caught up in what you are doing that you are overlooking my intention. I haven't been off my block in OC and you're acting as if I'm walking up and down Broadway hoping to get noticed.

I'm not a young un-empathetic, know-it-all, that still lives at home with mommy wanting to be a gung-ho vigilante. I travel/lecture all over the west coast, I have been active in the community and in a position of overseeing large groups of professionals and volunteers in that effort.

I understand what you are saying, but doing it and trying to minimize who I am, is a waste of your time. I have no chip on my shoulder at all. You made it personal.

 

[U201491]

..

 

[Atroxus]

I am having a problem with why anyone wants to open carry if they have a CHL.
First it just opens you up to uneeded problems.

I agree with this statement, but only to the extent that you may be harassed by police, or asked to leave certain places of business.

It lets the bad actors know who to take out first in a robbery, or at least puts them into hair trigger mental state.

Unless you know something I don't then this is just opinion. If you actually have examples to back up your statement please share them. Personally though, I have never once heard of a criminal comitting a crime in the presence of a civilian who is open carrying, or of a criminal intentionally targeting a person that is open carrying.(other than people targeting LEOs) Criminals in large part will pass up a target that presents a significant risk to them.

It makes you look like you are challenger to laws that many just do not comprehend.

The fact that so few actually know that it is legal is why more people *should* open carry. It's an inexpensive way to educate people. Ad campaigns are expensive.

All open carry does is make it known you have an easy source for him to gain his next weapon to commit a crime should he decide to take. Hardened idiots do not reason as the average citizen does and thay are takers and if they want your gun they won't telegraph their intent. You will just wake up in the hospital wondering what the **** hit you or you may not wake up at all.

Again unless you have examples this is just opinion. If you have facts to back this statement please do share. I have never heard of someone who open carries being targeted by criminals, let alone being jumped by someone who wanted to steal their gun.

I have open carried, but mostly when hunting, fishing, backpacking, but not in an urban daily life activity. You know that legally you can if you wish, but why add that to the rest of the greif you face on a daily basis from the idiots that have no clue.

A lot of people don't want to deal with the potential hassle of OC, and I say if you are not comfortable OCing, then don't. Nobody is trying to force you to OC. I am kind of curious why you are ok with OC when hunting/fishing/backpacking, but not in the city though.

A good class on firearms retention should be a priority in your training, because in the Penal Universities, you can bet they study every day on how to defeat you and take what they want from you and that includes your gun if they want it bad enough. Why stick it out to the forefront and make it easy for them? Criminals have little to no moral ethics and seldom hesitate to harm anyone. That puts them at an advantage over most of you that do have the common resepct for life. Unless trained, mostly mentally, but physically as well to set aside the hesitation to harm anyone, that criminal already has an advantage over you. They have no hesitation in the willingness to take your life or your posessions. Open carry just makes an open easy target to aquire for them, and My guess is you won't see it coming, so why open yourself up to that ??
Just my personal opinion. Silent stealthy confident and aware and trained to survive and you will generally be the one who makes it back.

I don't think anyone would disagree that training should be a priority for anyone that carries, whether that be open or concealed. I see a lot of people on forums like this arguing that open carry makes a person more vulnerable than concealed carry. I have yet to see anyone back up these claims with facts though.

 

[irehog66]

Atroxus,

Thank you! I simply got tired of answering/addressing Taku's specific comments - I didn't ask for HIS opinion. I was asking for the opinion of members that DO OC. I guess when I stated that over and over . . . . he missed it.

 

[U201491]

Atroxus,

Thank you! I simply got tired of answering/addressing Taku's specific comments - I didn't ask for HIS opinion. I was asking for the opinion of members that DO OC. I guess when I stated that over and over . . . . he missed it.

Well just go do it. Then you can come back and tell us all how it went with an educated point of view.
Yes I have done it years ago..
You asked for information from someone that has, then you got my viewpoint, ie; don't need the hassle, but you are very free to do as you wish. Go OC in Portland and enjoy )