Negligent discharge during recoil?

[Koda]

Is it possible to ND on recoil? What would cause this?

Im kinda coaching someone long distance (lord help them...) via phone; recently got into guns on his own, semi auto pistols, ...fires gun and then the gun went off during recoil kinda like a double tap but when the gun is still returning to battery it goes off again... Is this even possible? Whats the proper nomenclature to describe this and solve it? Im guessing improper grip and improper arm extension is what I suggested to look into but Ive never heard of this happening and cant find anything on it so asking here since this is a safety issue.

asking for a friend.

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[drstrangelove]

I've heard of it happening with a 500SW revolver and even seen it on YouTube; the only way for a semiauto pistol to double is to have a faulty disconnector. I had a PPKS run off full auto on me about 28yrs ago. Had to throw away those shorts. Interarms was kind enough to fix the problem for free. Had an AR throw doubles with an alternate BCG. Never figured out why that happened but the rangemaster offered me a hundred bucks for it. Gave it back to my friend.

 

[Koda]

I've heard of it happening with a 500SW revolver and even seen it on YouTube; the only way for a semiauto pistol to double is to have a faulty disconnector.

So in this case Im not suspecting a defective gun because it happened now on a different pistol so to me this indicates operator error. The friend is describing when the gun flips up somewhere in there it fires. To me this indicates improper grip, gun returns to battery before back on target and somewhere along the line the trigger finger let the trigger reset to fire again.

 

[American123]

So in this case Im not suspecting a defective gun because it happened now on a different pistol so to me this indicates operator error. The friend is describing when the gun flips up somewhere in there it fires. To me this indicates improper grip, gun returns to battery before back on target and somewhere along the line the trigger finger let the trigger reset to fire again.

Sounds like poor grip technique/strength is leading gun to jumping out of their hand. By the time their brain/muscles catch up to the pistol trying to jump out of their hand the gun is already in battery and their delayed reaction to grip the gun to keep it in their hand utilizes the trigger finger causing a second discharge.

This person sounds like they need a .22lr

 

[American123]

I've heard of it happening with a 500SW revolver and even seen it on YouTube; the only way for a semiauto pistol to double is to have a faulty disconnector. I had a PPKS run off full auto on me about 28yrs ago. Had to throw away those shorts. Interarms was kind enough to fix the problem for free. Had an AR throw doubles with an alternate BCG. Never figured out why that happened but the rangemaster offered me a hundred bucks for it. Gave it back to my friend.

With a light trigger and a proper technique leaning into the rifle opposed to a bipod, you can bump fire an AR pretty easily regardless.

 

[Koda]

Sounds like poor grip technique/strength is leading gun to jumping out of their hand. By the time their brain/muscles catch up to the pistol trying to jump out of their hand the gun is already in battery and their delayed reaction to grip the gun to keep it in their hand utilizes the trigger finger causing a second discharge.

This person sounds like they need a .22lr

this is exactly what I am guessing. he only has 40 and 9mm.

 

[TTSX]

Seen it happen with a .40 handgun. Older man shot 3 times, each one raising the barrel closer and closer to the bottom of his chin. One of those slow motion times where you can't really believe what you're seeing. Good thing there wasn't a 4th

 

[nammac]

Agree this is a grip/trigger finger issue, the recoil is causing an involuntary firing a second time as the gun goes back into battery. Seen this before with new shooters. Indoor private club I belonged to back east had a 5 round limit on semi-autos for just this reason.

I'd recommend this friend only load 3 or 4 rounds most until they gain control of the grip/trigger finger thing. Otherwise they may plant a round in themselves or a nearby bystander.

I agree with American123, they maybe better off with a .22 lr until then gain control/technique, then re-engage with the larger calibers.

 

[salmon creek gary]

"Is it possible to ND on recoil?" Yes, I'd have to say it is very possible that a novice shooter, if startled by unexpectedly heavy recoil, might reflexively pull that trigger a second time - maybe even a third - and never even realize that he'd done it. I have a war story to explain why I think it is possible.

This harks back to the 1979-1980 time frame when AFOSI agents turned in their Model 36-1 revolvers in exchange for "customized" M1911A1 duty weapons (I briefly described that custom job about mid-way through this old NWFA thread). The learning curve for transitioning from revolver to auto-loader was extremely steep, and one point on that curve proved problematic. By policy, armed teams returning to the office were to clear their sidearms into a clearing barrel (usually located in the entry foyer). OSI's common sense instruction* went like this: "point the gun into the clearing barrel, drop the magazine, eject the chambered round, and finally, pull the trigger to demonstrate an empty chamber".

That instruction may have been too complicated, because (reportedly) there were a few occasions when the mag was still in place when the chambered round was ejected. OK, you already know what's coming next. Yeah, the requisite trigger pull instantly proved that the chamber was not empty by generating an extremely loud noise in the entry foyer. What proved even more surprising was a reflexive or involuntary second trigger pull, which caused - you guessed it - a second extremely loud noise in the foyer. I am sure that there were also a few loud, enthusiastic shouts of "You dumb bubblegum!" or other such descriptive terms which probably went unheard, given that discharging a .45 twice indoors tends to be sort of deafening. Fortunately, no injuries were ever reported (however, there were some rumors of brown spots in skivvies).

* OSI policy eventually changed to eliminate the requirement to "clear before entering the office" after someone in authority reasoned that mandating opportunities for handling error would only result in more handling errors. I think the policy then became "keep the dang thing holstered!"

 

[Knobgoblin]

this is exactly what I am guessing. he only has 40 and 9mm.

He should trade that .40 for a rimfire as similar to the 9 as possible to . Get some trigger time on a training gun and
step up to centerfire afterwards. Right now it's not only dangerous, but a waste of 9mm ammo to continue.

 

[P7M13]

Im kinda coaching someone long distance (lord help them...) via phone; recently got into guns on his own, semi auto pistols, ..

Lord help unsuspecting life forms down range.

 

[red442joe]

What
Kinda
Gun
?
(Apologies if this was said above- I dint see it)

Joe

 

[red442joe]

There is a 1911 way to pull the trigger, and a Glock way to pull the trigger...

Joe

 

[coop44]

I know what happened, I like to call it "flinchy recoil freakout", my first wife had it. Followed by turning towards me with the gun and her finger still on the trigger, trigger still fully pulled, eyes closed.

 

[joken]

Is it possible to ND on recoil? What would cause this?

Im kinda coaching someone long distance (lord help them...) via phone; recently got into guns on his own, semi auto pistols, ...fires gun and then the gun went off during recoil kinda like a double tap but when the gun is still returning to battery it goes off again... Is this even possible? Whats the proper nomenclature to describe this and solve it? Im guessing improper grip and improper arm extension is what I suggested to look into but Ive never heard of this happening and cant find anything on it so asking here since this is a safety issue.

asking for a friend.

I have a CZ TSO that I don't shoot as often as I would like and it's very easy to double tap if it isn't gripped properly.

 

[DirectDrive]

Sounds like poor grip/ trigger control is causing the unwanted double tap.

 

[Stomper]

In the initial case mentioned in the OP, I'd classify it more as an "ignant discharge", but further incidents now qualify as "negligent discharge" because they are now aware something is lacking in either the firearm or the limp wristed hand holding it, and they should seek assistance.

 

[Member 34319]

I've done it. Had a race gun handed to me. Some really decked out 2011. Trigger was so damn light I got it to bump fire 3 rounds. Only meant to fire one. I would say it was an accidental discharge over negligent.

When I think negligent I think incompetence. Like someone dicking around with a loaded gun and sending one. Or not 100% verifying the gun is unloaded and sending one.

Your friend had an accidental discharge. He wasn't in total control of the gun and his inexperience caused the firearm to likely bump fire. Just my guess given the information provided.

Had he been in the garage bubbleguming around with live rounds trying to get one to chamber and it goes kaboom into his neighbors house, that would have been negligent, and plain old stupid.

 

[red442joe]

I know what happened, I like to call it "flinchy recoil freakout", my first wife had it. Followed by turning towards me with the gun and her finger still on the trigger, trigger still fully pulled, eyes closed.

BTDT, didn't keep the shorts or tee shirt.

Joe

 

[Certaindeaf]

Boneless boogerhook syndrome.

pretty simple really