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Need some help from those who reload

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by coyoteman5, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    This is a .243 col 2.710 95gr nosler bt. Using Hodgon 414
    At 39.0 gr-39.5-40.0 with cci mag primer Winchester brass. Savage rifle with Leupold scope 6.5x20x40
    It seems to like 39.5 and 40.0 grains but I'm get one round that goes Astray and I do not think I'm flinching or pulling it. Any good suggestions ?

    Hope link works
     
  2. Otter

    Otter Oregon - mid Willamette Valley Active Member

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    When you say astray, do you mean 1/2 inch out of the group, or three inches? A .243 is an accurate caliber, but out of a hunting rifle you need to have realistic expectations.

    It can be a wind gust, or the bags you are shooting off, the gun or the load. I have a Savage .223 that will put 4 bullets within 1/4 inch or each other and a 5th bullet 1/2 inch away from that group. No idea why...I think it is the barrel but who the hell really knows.
     
  3. noylj

    noylj high desert Active Member

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    You can spend money having the action bedded and making sure the barrel is free floating.
    You can take longer between shots so the barrel can cool down.
    You can accept it for what it is, if it is accurate for its intended purpose.
     
  4. Benihaus

    Benihaus Portland American

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    just curious, but why magnum primers? doesnt that OP the cases??
     
  5. noylj

    noylj high desert Active Member

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    The magnum primers are not ideal and will require a slight change in charge weight, but it was probably all the O.P. could find.
     
  6. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    I was using Standard primers but I read that for Hogden 414 you should use Magnum primers so I tried the magnum primers on this last go around and the groups were not so spread out the groups tightened up using same powder charge.
     
  7. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    Ill try posting link again to show targets.
     
  8. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    Here are groups
    image.jpg

    image.jpg

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    image.jpg
     
  9. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    Flyers like this can be from a multitude of causes.

    Some might call it "last shot syndrome" where you don't put the same effort into sending that round downrange as you did the others.

    One cause that's almost always overlooked is the case itself. When a bench rest shooter has a case that "tosses a shot outside the group" they will often reload it immediately and see if it shoots to the same general area again (or the same amount out of the group at a different clock position).

    Cases can do strange things. Some have large variations in case volume compared with the others used to shoot the group. Others are often "banana shaped" due to the inconsistencies in the actual brass. When resized the die can't uniformly shape the case as one side may be softer or thinner.

    One thing that you can do is to mark and isolate any case that "tosses a shot" like that. Put it off to the end of the box and next time load only those cases that grouped well.

    And then, don't overlook the shooter. Did you have your rifle on the same part of the rest, supporting the same part of the forend? Was the butt of the rifle placed in the same part of your shoulder? Did you take the same amount of care in setting up the shot?

    Just some things to think about.
     
  10. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    With the exception of the first group which is spread out the next two groups it was always the second round that went outside of the group. so the first and third one were side-by-side.
    I think I'm going to Investigate the cases And of course me make sure that I am not flinching or doing something I don't think I'm doing To affect the round. Last night I have read an article on case Differences in the neck.
    So I think I will load more than three I will load like a dozen go shoot them and set aside the ones that go outside a set group. And before I reload them I will check the case neck and see what if any differences I can find and Mark that case and see what happens after shooting it
     
  11. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget to make sure that your rifle is being supported in exactly the same point with each shot too. Not uncommon for someone to use a sandbag rest, fire a shot, fire the second, then push the rifle forward as it's just about off the rest, then fire the third. I discovered this was happening to me when I would shoot 5 shot strings and get two separate and distinct groups. 2 shots in one location, often in one ragged hole, and a three shot group off about 1", again in a single ragged hole.

    FWIW, he only time I shoot 3-round groups is when I'm trying to quickly find an accuracy node when I'm a little short of that bullet. The rest of the time it's 5 shot groups only. Ends the question of "did I have one flyer? Or was it two flyers:cool:?"
     
  12. Otter

    Otter Oregon - mid Willamette Valley Active Member

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    For a factory rifle I think those a pretty good groups. Pretty typical of what I have seen from thin barrel hunting rifles. Lots of one hole groups are shot on the Internet. I have yet to find anyone shooting them at Tri-County where I shoot.

    What kinds of rest do you shoot off? I've seen poor bench manners and hard sand bags cause those kinds of problems in very accurate rifles. Do you use any sort of wind indicators? That second and third group could have been caused by a strong cross wind down range that you didn't even feel at the bench.

    If you are wanting to use that load for deer hunting, I would be okay with how it is shooting. Looks like you are getting one inch groups...maybe a little larger. Could be that is all the gun is capable of too.
     
  13. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    The last couple of time I have used sand bag placed just in ahead of chamber I Usually would use my lead sled but the Forearm of my stock on my Savage is not reinforce it is very flimsy
    And would really throw my point of Impact all over the place so I went to sand bags and groups were better.
    I have shot 1/2" groups with this gun with 75 v-max bullets
     
  14. Otter

    Otter Oregon - mid Willamette Valley Active Member

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    It might not like the Nosler bullets. Have you tried any Hornady or Sierra bullets in the 95 grain range? Nice groups with the 75 grain Vmax bullets by the way.

    I notice the first Vmax shows a similar but tighter group then your first group posted. And it looks like your second Vmax group is two really tight and one outside that group, similar to your original 2nd and 3rd groups. These groups are similar to how my Savage .223 shoots. That rifle shoots good with Nosler bullets, but won't shoot Sierra or Hornady bullets very well.

    I know it is expensive to experiment with all the different brands of bullets. I'm stuck with several odd lots of bullets that didn't work out.
     
  15. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    image.jpg
    This is a nosler 70gr BT but I only have about 6-8 left and can't find any in stores at this point I have seen them online. I have about 350 of 75 v-max.
    But it's Weird that most of the time it's the second shot out of three that goes outside the group. I'm going to investigate my brass and I might even look into getting a higher quality brass but for now I'm just going to look into the brass that i have and see if I can sort out what's causing this.

    image.jpg
     
  16. keokira

    keokira United States New Member

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    Try using some different powders . I have used IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 with good results. They may be older style powders but I have had excellent results in my gun. There you don't have to use magnum primers either.
     
  17. gunfreak

    gunfreak Boise Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why your so picky about those shots. If I can hit a milk jug at a distance that I think I will see a deer I'm good. My Savage 243 shoots great with 40 grains of H4350 pushing a 95 grain Nosler ballistic tip.
     
  18. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Out of curiosity, do you have a chronograph? If so this may be a good way of diagnosing your issue.

    Off the top of my head:

    Check the amount of parallax in your scope, the 95 is a slightly bigger bullet, so slightly more recoil - not likely but worth playing with (it's easy).
    Take an IR thermometer with you and fire longer strings, keep track of barrel temp and see if it's warping and changing point of aim.
    Going back to heat as an issue - How long are the cartridges sitting in the warm chamber? Perhaps 414 isn't as temp stable as varget?
    Did you develop the load with standard primers and then switch to magnum? Try reducing charge by 1-2gr and see if it makes a difference.
     
  19. coyoteman5

    coyoteman5 North south east west Active Member

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    No chrono at this time.
    I'm taking ten cases and putting a light chamfer on all of them I reset my die to make sure it was adjusted correctly as in not put any kind of a crimp on case. Ill most likely be shooting them Friday to see how they do.